 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-12-22 03:41
Ok, so........ all I see about Alcopa is that they are "worldwide and global."
Let's have it Mark - is this the end of Buffet when they don't meet first quarter projections?
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-12-22 08:45
Well, THERE'S a way to celebrate Buffet Crampon's 200th anniversary next year...
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-12-22 10:10
Sounds from the above BASS7 post that this is a symbiotic relationship just swooshing around investor's monies. Of course instrument manufacturers are never going to make a big market splash and unlike "back then," interest rates have gone up, making the selling part less appealing.
When I hear "Private Equity," I think of the guys who buy companies, tear them apart and make a profit selling off the pieces.
Of course as a dyed-in-the-wool pessimist I foresee the worst possible scenarios first. Hope I'm wrong.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-12-22 11:23
I wanted to know more about Alcopa and Buffet-Crampon and here is what I found: https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=10716
Buffet made over 110 million euros last year. So, I really don't think they want to tear Buffet-Crampon into pieces and sell it off.
Also in the article is listed other equity firms who have owned Buffet-Crampon. (So, BAS57 was correct.)
If equity companies really only tore companies apart and sold off the pieces, then Buffet-Crampon would have gone out of existence a long time ago.
Also, from the following article by Harvard Business Review, even amidst rising interest rates, equity firms buy companies that they deem to be undervalued.
https://hbr.org/2007/09/the-strategic-secret-of-private-equity
Notice in the first article, the value of Buffet-Crampon was "uncertain". (To me, that means they didn't want anyone else to actually know.)
I believe Alcopa saw Buffet-Crampon as an undervalued company and ripe for a take over.
Just my opinions.
Post Edited (2024-12-22 11:50)
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-22 12:52
I'd have thought that the worst case scenario would be a drop in quality to increase profit margins, while ostensibly offering all the same models. It's not a company whose recipe for success lies in taking an innovative approach( unlike Yamaha), so much as doggedly complying with pre-existing customer expectations( like Levi's Jeans).
I wouldn't expect any changes for the better with Buffet, but hopefully neither will there be any changes for the worst.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-22 15:45
Buffet's quality isn't great to begin with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-12-22 18:27
Chris P,
In my opinion - Buffet died a long time ago and the main reason we still see them is because educators, players, and such were indoctrinated to carry the corpse of what was once a great brand.
We inevitably hold on to brands far beyond the timeframe where the brand's products are superior. This isn't unique to clarinets - but it is perhaps amplified a bit more...at least historically.
My opinion: Buffet made a superior product (compared to other available options) for twenty+ years...but that was 40 years ago now. That's a long time to carry a corpse.
To me, the purchase of Buffet is a purchase based not so much on what the product is now...but knowing folks won't let go of it regarless of how bad it gets. Looks like a win/win for the purchaser. They're banking on human nature.
Perhaps it will take another generation or two for our historical biases to ease a bit?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[NOTE: symphony1010 pointed out my misspelling of "Buffet" so I have correct it. Thanks, symphony1010!]
Post Edited (2024-12-23 08:27)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-22 21:31
It will probably be fine- Buffet have been owned by other companies before. Boosey and Hawkes bought them in the 1980s but Buffet later became independent once again.
They have made some of the world’s finest clarinets for far longer than 20+ years and, quite frankly, many of the other options have their own issues.
Incidentally, it’s Buffet, not Buffett.
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2024-12-23 03:46
Fuzzy wrote:
> Chris P,
>
> In my opinion - Buffett died a long time ago and the main
> reason we still see them is because educators, players, and
> such were indoctrinated to carry the corpse of what was once a
> great brand.
>
> We inevitably hold on to brands far beyond the timeframe where
> the brand's products are superior. This isn't unique to
> clarinets - but it is perhaps amplified a bit more...at least
> historically.
>
> My opinion: Buffett made a superior product (compared to other
> available options) for twenty+ years...but that was 40 years
> ago now. That's a long time to carry a corpse.
>
> To me, the purchase of Buffett is a purchase based not so much
> on what the product is now...but knowing folks won't let go of
> it regarless of how bad it gets. Looks like a win/win for the
> purchaser. They're banking on human nature.
>
> Perhaps it will take another generation or two for our
> historical biases to ease a bit?
>
> Fuzzy
> ;^)>>>
Had to remind myself that this was about clarinets and Buffet Crampon, not Mercedes-Benz.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren M15 Profile 88 (non-13) mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren blue-box #3.5 reeds
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-12-23 06:57
"Had to remind myself that this was about clarinets and Buffet Crampon, not Mercedes-Benz."
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-23 12:55
Top players are not idiots. The biggest issue with Buffet right now is not having enough samples of instruments to try and, for those of us in Europe, having to wait up to 2 years to get an appointment at the factory.
I spoke at length to a colleague in a major London orchestra just last week. All except one are still playing Buffet clarinets. The one player I spoke to is principal bass clarinet (Selmer) and their particular soprano instruments are Yamaha.
It's the sound and response that these players still embrace and they also have technical people who can set their instruments up to the highest level.
Top players can't afford to live on nostalgia.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-12-23 23:19
Concerning Walter's (symphony1010) comments above , all I can say is:
Wow! What an incredible, "thumb's up", positive endorsement for Buffet clarinets! "It's the sound and response that these players still embrace..."
And, Fuzzy, thank you for your opinion stated above, because it's what you stated that brought forth symphony1010's comments.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-12-24 01:20
Looking around London, in the major orchestras, we have 4 or 5 principal players on Buffet, 2 on Selmer, 1 on Peter Eaton (BBC) and I don't really see anything else.
That's not to say that all those instruments are current models - some players are using older examples or they may own a mix of older and newer models.
Then there are just a few fickle individuals who move around a bit so these numbers may change!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-12-24 04:13
symphony1010, thanks for your up-to-date clarification.
When you wrote: "That's not to say that all those instruments are current models - some players are using older examples or they may own a mix of older and newer models", that brought to my mind current discussions on this BB about the quality of current or recently produced Buffet clarinets.
I just did a search for: "Have Buffet clarinets gone down in quality? and I found the following reddit blog concerning this subject. (I realize that reddit is not an authoritative source of information, however I found the first 2 paragraphs of a response given by Accomplished-Read976 to be interesting and possibly true.)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Clarinet/comments/184sd1d/buffet_r13_clarinets_decline_in_quality_control/?rdt=42765
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2024-12-24 07:36
See, the reason they call 'em "Buffet Crampon" is cause my embouchure is so tired from crampin' trying to play their horns in tune. ☺
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-24 09:32
Unless it was changed in recent years (anyone knows?), as far as I know Buffet still uses the "human error" manufacturing method of the bore, which purposely makes different clarinets (of the same model) slightly different, so people can choose among them.
It's their philosophy (or at least used to be) and a conscious choice...
Just a matter of preference and probability depending on luck and how many you can try (meaning the difference are not necessarily good vs. bad, but can be just a matter preference and different players would choose different clarinets).
My first Buffet seemed good from the two I could try... a decade later I tried more than ten and my old one was at the bottom.
They don't sound or tune worse than any other company really.
This is separate from the finishing and mechanical problems that shouldn't be there regardless.
Other companies are not immune. Someone just brought a $15,000 clarinet with a solder joint that suddenly failed the first year and it had the manufacturing defect of keys binding when rod screws are tightened (problems that are unacceptable on a $2,000 clarinet).
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-24 11:14
I've never heard of the " human error " factor posed as a good thing in engineering.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-24 11:16
"crampin' with your embouchure is a really great way to play out of tune and probably causing 70% of the problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-12-24 16:06
I personally like the idea of "human error" being a good thing. When finishing the tuning on any one instrument, due to all the various areas that cause issues just to one note (for example), there is no way possible to recreate the same solution on a subsequent horn. This is also what happens with custom mouthpieces. The maker will "fiddle with it" until the mouthpiece plays right.
Of course I had the opportunity to test several batches of Greenline R13s coming into inventory at some of the Army bands with which I served. The constancy was quite remarkable and I attributed that to the Greenline material which doesn't "settle" after manufacture like wood will.
And as much as I have enjoyed "ragging" on Buffet over the years I think they produce a well made horn.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-24 23:02
>> I've never heard of the " human error " factor posed as a good thing in engineering. <<
To clarify, I'm calling it "human error" but have no idea how they call it or refer to it. To bore the upper section they used a reamer attached at one end and a person was shoving the part over it.
This already causes quite a bit of variation, but in addition there was no hard stop, the worker stopped based on a mark.
It worked. Having slight changes meant a lot of people found "the one" so to speak...
>> The constancy was quite remarkable and I attributed that to the Greenline material which doesn't "settle" after manufacture like wood will. <<
This is only from people who talked to people at Buffet or visited... so it's not certain, but I've heard that the Greenline clarinets sometimes use different tools. So they may use a different method for it, causing less variation... maybe.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-25 01:11
I'm with what Clarnibass and Paul Avilas are getting at, only I wouldn't term it " human error" within that context .It's something perhaps more broadly recognized in the making of violins and cellos, where every instrument will sound distinctive ( be individual) irregardless of the luthier's skills and aspirations to consistency in building. If it's human error, then you have a situation where if five musicians try five instruments, then they will all tend to agree on which is the best and which is the worst. But if it's distinctive sound character between the instruments, then the favorites of each musican may well be different and that's a fine thing and no element of human error really comes into it.
When a musician feels they have an instrument with distinctive qualities that complements and fits their playing, this is a special relationship which goes beyond what the homogenous nature of a product can offer.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-25 01:32
Bore reaming is usually done by hand and either up to a mark or a stopper on the reamer. If it's done up to a mark, then that can be overdone or underdone depending how you sight the mark on the reamer in relation to the end of the joint that's being bored up.
Then there's the reamer itself which will have some variation in it from the point when it's been freshly sharpened to when it's blunt, then when it's been resharpened after that. And then there's how hot it gets during reaming (which will affect plastics and composites more than wood) and if the bore is polished afterwards, that too will introduce even more variation depending how much or little polishing has been done.
And then there's the stability of the wood itself as a result of how well seasoned it is and how long it has been left to rest in between each stage of processing from a square section billet to the finished joint or if it's just been rushed through.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-25 02:18
Anyway - I'm still reading Alcopa as either Alcopop or Alpaca.
And as a cheeky 'Did You Know?', the Italian for nickel silver is alpaca.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-12-25 02:50
Julian ibiza wrote above: "I've never heard of the " human error " factor posed as a good thing in engineering."
According to the following short, definition article, "Human Error Engineering" is actually a good thing. As I read through the various posts above using this terminology, the only conclusion that I can come up with is that this term, IMHO, is simply being used differently.
As I understand the article, the sole purpose of Human Error Engineering is to eliminate human errors.
https://errorfree.com/services/human-error-engineering/
Post Edited (2024-12-25 04:05)
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