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 B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Bill 
Date:   2024-12-16 05:05

I've returned to playing after 2+ years and B4 on about half of my instruments is gone, gone, gone. No sound. And this is on meticulously overhauled instruments.

Watching all the "easy fix" YouTube videos and hitting my many books (Frank, Saska, Thorp, Brand, Meyer, Ferron ... yes, I own all of them; no, none are helping). Concentrating on the embouchure. Obsessing on proper fingering.

Please help, if anyone can.

Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)


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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Philip Caron 
Date:   2024-12-16 05:21

Fingered with either pinky? If consistently so, then it's really hard not to think that lowest pad isn't closing right.

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: kdk 
Date:   2024-12-16 06:35

Bill, you really need someone who know the clarinet (preferably with teaching experience) to listen and watch you in person to figure out what's going on. Folks here can guess until the cows come home and not guess right. It may be a combination of things - a mechanical issue on the clarinet combined with a finger issue such that solving one problem still doesn't fix the other. I'm not suggesting "Get a teacher," only getting some in-person help. You have too much experience going for you for the usual kids' problems to be what's stymieing you.

Karl

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: m1964 
Date:   2024-12-16 16:59

Starting lessons with a highly qualified teacher transformed my playing- both sound and articulation, but also my mind/perception.

I suggest to get a teacher but not just any teacher- do research, set one lesson and see if you "click" with the person. Lessons in person only.



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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: kdk 
Date:   2024-12-16 18:16

m1964 wrote:

> I suggest to get a teacher but not just any teacher- do
> research, set one lesson and see if you "click" with the
> person. Lessons in person only.
>

A good teacher can always be a great help to a player trying to improve his playing. I think, though, that Bill just wants to figure out why B4 isn't working reliably (if at all).

I'm only suggesting he needs someone else (first) to play the instrument(s) and see if the problem stays with the instrument or not. If it does, then the problem is a mechanical one. If it turns out that it isn't a problem with the instrument, someone observing in person can much more easily see what *isn't* causing it and get more quickly down to what *might be* the cause, saving a lot of wasted experiments based on people's online guesses here, which might turn out to be right-on-the-money or way-off-the-mark.

Karl

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2024-12-16 19:20

In addition to the good suggestions above....

So B4 [B4] won't voice but E3 [E3] will?

With shorts not long pants on, as we need access to human flesh upon wish to effect a Seal at the bottom end of a clarinet section, I'd take each section and seal its bottom with the flesh of one's thigh, cover the section's holes and attempt to both blow and suck air from the top to check the seal.

Or, as Karl has added in prior posts with similar suggestion, for those in colder climates, use a well-fitted rubber plug (available in hardware stores) to close the bottom of the bore or just pull your pants leg up to your knee for some calf exposure.

Establishing seal may not itself solve your problem, but it is a necessary condition and the fact that you've expressed B4 but not E3 issues is curious to me.

Good luck.

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2024-12-16 20:30

B4 is more prone to packing up if the regulation is slightly out even if low E still speaks.

If it's a matter of regulation gone out, then don't let a teacher do anything to it as they'll inevitably do more harm than good. I've seen all manner of crap stuck to the crow's foot or on the underside of the RH E/B touch and in every single case, it's made matters far worse than what is effectively a simple fix if you know exactly what you're doing, provided the silencing materials are still in place.

The most likely cause of E/B not working with either LH or RH E/B touch only is because the RH F/C touch has been bent while the clarinet is in its case and there's excessive pressure put on the keywork. If you've got a Buffet, then their keywork and especially the RH F/C touchpiece casting is particularly soft and will bend just by looking at it, not helped with how thin the touchpiece arm is as it has to run over the Ab/Eb touchpiece arm and the centre pillar of both RH Ab/Eb and F/C keys. It's down to both bad design and soft metal.

If you know how and where to bend, then try that. If not, then don't do anything as you'll end up breaking the touchpiece if you overdo it and save yourself the heartache and take it straight to your repairer (and one with plenty of experience) who should be well versed in making this ultra common adjustment. If they start sticking bits of cork on top of existing key cork or felt, they haven't got a clue what they're doing and you need to find someone who does.

I can sort this problem out in a matter of seconds and don't charge anyone for it as it's that routine, but I make sure I do it in such a way that no-one sees what I do so they don't go and try it out for themselves as I've learnt how to do this through decades of experience and it's not something for a novice to even consider.

Just a reminder - teachers only teach, players only play and repairers are the ones that have to repair the damage caused by the former two when they don't stick to their own lane.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

Post Edited (2024-12-16 20:38)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: symphony1010 
Date:   2024-12-16 21:50

Try slowly descending from around E above the B. Choose C on the right and finally the B on the left, leaving the C key down. This may provide a result whereas just going straight to B may not.

If everything works except the B then you probably have a pad/key issue.

As others have said, another player's assessment would be ideal to determine where the issue lies.

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: graham 
Date:   2024-12-16 21:56

How many is half your instruments? And is this across a range of sizes, such as Eflat to bass?

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2024-12-16 22:36

Folks, please excuse my ignorance, but, aren't we really talking about B5 or B3?

At the very top of this page, right after BBoard, it shows a picture of where C4 is located.

Shouldn't B4 be located right under C4 as pictured?

SecondTry, if B4 is located in the middle of the staff and B3 is located just under the third line of the entire staff, what do you call the note which is just under the C4 as pictured after BBoard?

Sorry, I guess I'm a bit confused...



Post Edited (2024-12-16 22:50)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2024-12-16 23:05

C3 is bass/basset low C [C3] and B3 is the B below middle C [B3]
C4 is middle C [C4] up to mid stave B(4) [B4]
then C5 [C5] up to B5 [B5]
then C6 [C6] up to B6 [B6]

The 8ves in each case are from C going up to B.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

Post Edited (2024-12-16 23:11)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:14

Chris P, Thanks.

I've looked at piano names and frequencies before, but, somehow, I never noticed that.

https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-notenames.htm

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

p.s. So B3 is just to the left of C4 on a keyboard...interesting...

and B4 is actually what is referred to as "long clarion B".



Post Edited (2024-12-17 00:18)

Reply To Message
 
 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: SecondTry 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:29

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Folks, please excuse my ignorance, but, aren't we really
> talking about B5 or B3?
>
> At the very top of this page, right after BBoard, it
> shows a picture of where C4 is located.
>
> Shouldn't B4 be located right under C4 as
> pictured?
>
> SecondTry, if B4 is located in the middle of the staff
> and B3 is located just under the third line of the
> entire staff, what do you call the note which is just under the
> C4 as pictured after BBoard?
>
> Sorry, I guess I'm a bit confused...
>

>
> Post Edited (2024-12-16 22:50)

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smiley.html?f=1



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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:29

You should see harp 8ves as they're something else - they start with 00 8ve at the top and run down to 7th 8ve, with each 8ve being E down to F with 4th 8ve C/C4 also being middle C.

https://www.tianyinmusic.com/data/media/image/big/c/c/98/b2/6d782b2e4aff3d3de7f4658f92cd98178b74d082ee998d3d8ebd7986e6.png

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

Post Edited (2024-12-17 00:32)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: kdk 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:35

Chris P wrote:

> If it's a matter of regulation gone out, then don't let a
> teacher do anything to it as they'll inevitably do more harm
> than good. I've seen all manner of crap stuck to the crow's
> foot or on the underside of the RH E/B touch and in every
> single case, it's made matters far worse than what is
> effectively a simple fix if you know exactly what you're doing,
> provided the silencing materials are still in place.

> Just a reminder - teachers only teach, players only play and
> repairers are the ones that have to repair the damage caused by
> the former two when they don't stick to their own lane.

Chris, in general I agree with you, but be a little charitable. :)

Some of that crap (extra cork, tape) may be what got the player through a rehearsal or even a concert as an emergency repair. I've heard the same lecture from my most recent repair guy when I finally had time to bring him my bass clarinet a couple of years ago after I had done some jerry-rigging to get the damn thing to play for an opera. All the rehearsals and the performances were within a week and there just wasn't time to make the drive to his shop amid all the opera activity as well as my other obligations through the week. I got the clarinet to him as soon as I was able and he was available.

Still, you're right - except for emergency first aid, a skilled repairer with the right experience and tools is who should be doing critical adjustments, not a teacher or player with a screwdriver and a pair of pliers in his hands.

Karl

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Dan Shusta 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:39

Nearly 64 years ago, my first instrument was the double keyboard organ. My teacher was a professional accordionist from Austria. He never mentioned a number after a note name no matter where it was on the keyboard. Never...

It's nice to learn new things...



Post Edited (2024-12-17 00:41)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: kdk 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:50

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Folks, please excuse my ignorance, but, aren't we really
> talking about B5 or B3?
>
> At the very top of this page, right after BBoard, it
> shows a picture of where C4 is located.
>
> Shouldn't B4 be located right under C4 as
> pictured?
>
I once thought B4 *should* be under C4, too, but the numbering system in the picture starts with each octave of C: C-D-E-F-G-A-B. So the octave beginning with C4 ("middle C") ends a 7th above on B4 (3rd line of treble staff). The next note is C5 and B5 is a seventh above that.

There are other numbering systems. This one is based on the piano keyboard and the C scale as the natural grouping (never mind that standard 88-key pianos start with A below C1.

I myself would think a system starting with that lowest A as A1 and numbering up to G1, then A2-G2, etc. might be more intuitive for those of us who name the notes alphabetically. But then in many places, the musical scale uses solfeggio names, not alphabet letters, and starts with Do (C). Starting with La would drive those people nuts.

Karl



Post Edited (2024-12-17 00:52)

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: kdk 
Date:   2024-12-17 00:58

Dan Shusta wrote:

> Nearly 64 years ago, my first instrument was the double
> keyboard organ. My teacher was a professional accordionist from
> Austria. He never mentioned a number after a note name no
> matter where it was on the keyboard. Never...

It saves all the descriptive rhetoric that becomes necessary when discussing (usually in print) which octave a person means. Otherwise, you get "B below middle C" or B third line of the treble staff. And it also replaces "high C" or "low F" which are really unclear.

This BBoard provides a way to actually show the notation, as in [B3] or [B4].

Karl

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2024-12-17 10:55

>> after 2+ years and B4 on about half of my instruments is gone, gone, gone. No sound. And this is on meticulously overhauled instruments. <<

Out of how many? If half the instruments means two, then it's not that unlikely that both have an adjustment problem of the two bottom open keys, which is one of if not the most common adjustment problem on a clarinet.
If it's twenty then it's a bit beyond the realm of possibility but who knows...

Since half of them supposedly work fine... it implies you aren't the problem... maybe...
It's still possible you have the problem sometimes and it gives the impression that some of them work ok. For example you might be pressing another key when playing one of the E/B keys, but only sometimes.
What is different? Did you try the same mouthpiece and reed with all of them?

When you encounter the problem, does playing the B4 with both hands help at all i.e. pressing the F/C key with one and E/B with the other?
If this solves the problem then it's the usual adjustment issue. If it doesn't, it could still be the opposite adjustment problem (rare but happens), or something else.

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: graham 
Date:   2024-12-17 16:36

As both I and clarnibass have asked, how many instruments are thus affected? Bill needs to return to the thread so that the conversation can regain focus.

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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Bill 
Date:   2024-12-17 20:23
Attachment:  20241217_111412.jpg (1530k)
Attachment:  20241217_111427.jpg (1644k)

I have about three clarinets that are either insecure or unplayable because of clarion ("long") B. I have wondered if this is because the case is pushing down on the C/F key (as was once suggested). Most frustrating is that the worst case is a recent (well, within the last 4 years) overhaul.

I am a collector of vintage clarinets and I focus on Buffets in the 21xxx to 25xxx series -- those of the mid- to late 1930s. These tend NOT to have this problem; it's mainly my Selmers from the same era (L- and M-series). I have never had a keywork problem with a Leblanc (except for the clattering chrome keys of my L7). My "worst" instrument is a very old SML (3-digit serial #) that has a special vent associated with the register key (this is the "recently" overhauled clarinet mentioned above). I've added two photos. I own only Bb and A clarinets (one unrestored Kohlert eefer).

One final source of some of my problems may be that I had 22+ stitches in my left "register key" thumb in 2021. That area at the tip and side of my thumb is partially "numb" so to speak. I've wondered if I'm not closing the register key the way I used to. Still, when B4 doesn't speak at all -- even with concentration and strict finger position -- something's messed up technically.

I appreciate all the comments and thank you for your help. I will be careful not to repeat my problems on the board and will study all the input I've been fortunate enough to receive!

Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)


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 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2024-12-17 20:56

If you know exactly what you're doing when it comes to bending keywork to make fine adjustments, then check the closing pressure of both the RH F/C and E/B pads with a feeler gauge to see which pad is closing with more pressure. Before doing that, check the silencing materials are good and the pads are actually seating. If they're not, adjust them accordingly (if you know how to do that) - it's better to have the pads close with a tad more pressure at the front than the back (nearest the key rod/barrel), but still closing all the same.

Use the thinnest possible cigarette papers you can find to use a feeler gauges - most repairers tend to use blue Rizlas but I prefer the silver ones as they're about half the thickness.

Assuming the pads are all seating as they should and using light finger pressure to close the pads against their toneholes instead of forcing them closed, hold down the LH E/B lever and check the closing pressure on both F/C and E/B key pads. You want the F/C key pad to close with more pressure than the E/B key pad as that will ensure your E/B will speak. If the F/C pad is too light or not closing at all, then you'll need to adjust it.

I don't recommend anyone attempts the following unless you have the aptitude as you can easily do more harm than good. Place your left thumbnail under the crow's foot and VERY GENTLY press the F/C pad cup down with your right thumb, then check the progress with the feeler gauge so the F/C pad closes with slightly more pressure than the E/B pad.

If you've overdone it so the E/B key pad isn't closing, then hold the F/C key down and GENTLY press down on the RH F/C key touchpiece to bend it down, then check the progress with your feeler gauge until the desired closing pressure on both pads is achieved.

Do this at your own risk as I'm not going to be held responsible for any potential damage. I only recommend you do this if you know exactly what you're doing and if not, then leave well alone and make an appointment to see your repairer if you have any doubt. This is a very simple and routine job for any repairer and something they should be able to do on the spot, provided you've asked them in advance. If they claim to be far too busy to perform such a relatively simple and quick spot of regulation right there and then, they're a liar and you should find someone else who has the time.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

Reply To Message
 
 Re: B4 is gone, gone, gone
Author: graham 
Date:   2024-12-17 23:37

Very interesting Bill

I also own a number of vintage clarinets, and I would support the view that they are generally very reliable. I have had my pair of Hawkes/Martel instruments for nearly forty years, and have used them frequently (as I don't use modern clarinets). They date from before the First World War, and I last had them repadded etc around twenty years ago. Neither of them ever hesitate on any note and a single finger bell B appears very readily in both of them, with little pressure.

I also have a pair comprising another Hawkes/Martel and a Louis, so a mixture of 190X and 192X dating, which I play less often, and acquired in 2009, and which I think were last serviced long before then. No problem at all.

But my other (odd) pair, comprising two recently acquired instruments, a Martel Freres a Paris (192X-193X dates) and a Jerome Thibouville Lame (estimate around 190X) quickly showed a problem (on the JTL) whereby the crow's foot rod was gradually easing off the key above. This only gradually produced clear failure (followed rapidlly by a falling off). It's now been welded back on and 'fingers crossed' that the weld does not fail.

The likelihood of three Selmers all sprouting that fault at the same time seems incredible. I also have a full Boehm Hawkes from 1929, which someone of knowledge told me was probably a rebadged Selmer, and again there is no problem with it (apart from being ergonomically pretty dire, but that's a wholly different subject). But I suppose you could check whether it's that, or that the last tech used an unsuitable substance to buffer the crows foot attachment and that has started to go wrong (though, once again, why not on the Buffets in that case?).

But the bottom line is that most very old clarinets simply don't seem to have problems of this kind...

I hope you find the issue.

graham

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