 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-17 19:26
No, it's not Al Gore's, and the climate crises, much as I personally subscribe to the severity of this situation.
Rather, it's both the fact that US orchestras don't reflect ethnic diversity to the extent to which it exists in the population, and difference in opinion on how to best change this.
I hope the very fact that I recognize and want to change this finds me not being racist.
I am for nearly all situations in life where affirmative programs seek out minorities for acceptance into academic and professional fields, and commensurate mentoring, that recognizes the need to produce such minority talent to undo not only historical inequities, but existing limits in the opportunities to people of color inherent in our society in many areas: the classical musical performance arts being one.
And yet, when it comes to things like orchestral auditions I feel there is no option but to accept players strictly on talent, even though it's a heavy handed decision for me knowing that such talent would be better ethnically diverse if something closer to equal opportunity existed in places like public schools, and access to (good) instruments and teachers and opportunity to study music.
Were two players of extremely similar talent competing for an orchestral position in initially blind auditions, and prior to job offer, it became clear that one was a minority, I'd be okay with affirmative hiring policy among equally talented players.
Are my views racist? I hope not. It's just that when that “bassoon solo comes along,” there's no opportunity to mentor the soloist real time: they have to be able to handle things on their own, unlike say in a corporate environment where work product can first be reviewed. And do I believe that equal opportunity would eventually produce classical musicians of all backgrounds: of course. And do I believe that there are classical musicians of color out there now more than capable of holding their own: you bet I do—just not enough due to inequity in opportunity.
I am afraid that the solution to this problem takes a generation and doesn't come overnight, or, at least in this unique employment situation, starts with something closer to equal access to music education as a youngster than affirmative hiring practices for classical positions.
It it possible that I'm misguided, wrong, even bigotted? I hope not but sure. Let's civilly discuss this and all become more informed and wise. 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-17 20:06
I would say many generations. My daughter always blusters when I say this about racial issues.
I'll use a slightly different example. It was not long ago that there was a trombone opening in the Vienna Philharmonic that was won by a hot shot Texas born trombone player. The orchestra promptly had two MORE auditions because that didn't seem like an appropriate result. The two further auditions produced the same result and the Vienna Philharmonic just decided to stop embarrassing itself.
So there are all sorts of nationalistic preconceived ideas that are somewhat hard wired into our DNA. Things will change......over time. The lack of women in the top German and Austrian orchestras turned around in a big way, but it took about fifty years for that to occur and it took no less then Herbert von Karajan to kick it off (unsuccessfully at first.....Sabine Meyer never became a full time member of the Berlin Philharmonic). And for me, that was lightning speed.
So like much important social change; hope for it, work toward it, but don't expect to see it in your lifetime.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mr. Mitch
Date: 2023-05-17 20:18
SecondTry:
You are not bigotted or misguided. While I am a 55 year old who just picked up the clarinet last year and will never have any helpful musical advice for the great musicians on this site, I have been an employment lawyer representing employees for 30 years in the U.S. Affirmative action and the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which banned racial, gender, color, national origin, religion, ethnicity and other discrimination in employment has been greatly successful. It has opened the door to talented people otherwise excluded from participation or other economic opportunities due to irrelevant, ascribed characteristics. You can't expect greatness to develop without participation. I have seen many talented but raw minorities develop their potential due to diversity programs.
That said, I can think of little more merit-based than playing music. Where affirmative action works is much earlier in the process than professional auditions which should be determined solely by talent and performance. It works to identify talent early on and develop it. Placing anyone in a position they do not deserve sets them up for failure and resentment by others.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-17 23:31
Quote:
Were two players of extremely similar talent competing for an orchestral position in initially blind auditions, and prior to job offer, it became clear that one was a minority, I'd be okay with affirmative hiring policy among equally talented players.
Are my views racist?
Quote:
the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which banned racial, gender, color, national origin, religion, ethnicity and other discrimination in employment
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mr. Mitch
Date: 2023-05-18 00:02
There is no doubt some tension between attempting to be race neutral while remedying the current effects of known past (or still current) discrimination. That is not sufficient reason to abandon the endeavor. There are also other methods, such as focusing on poverty (often a proxy for race) instead of race, which IMHO largely targets the same population but does so on a more equitable basis.
As an aside, a case alleging selection of one artist over another based on race, gender, etc., would be very difficult to prove based on the legitimate and somewhat inherently subjective nature of evaluating talent at a very high level. Sorry I got in the weeds a bit.
Mitchell D Benjamin
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-18 00:34
Having partially grown up in the States , and later lived there as an adult , I know that racism continues to be one of the nations leading social issues, the extent of which varies considerably depending on where you go .
Personally I'm a staunch defender of social equality which I regard as an absolute principal which becomes farcical if there are exceptions .
At the risk of ruffling a few feathers , I've never understood how the national pride in the US. Constitution ( and it's a GREAT constitution) can stand in the same mind as the mind that is racially prejudiced .....I just doesn't square up !
The contemporary tendencies towards political correctness ( and I mean here in Europe too) somehow worry me however . The use of politically correct terminology reminds me of Aldous Huxley . It seems to assume that if people use sugared words for things then they will all become sweet and charitably minded . It strikes me as like putting a band aid on a wound that's already septic . Also, going to lengths to give the outward impression that racism is receding is somewhat sweeping the dirt under the carpet I feel . eg " let's get a black receptionist to front our business image..... but not one with natural Afro hair ...that would scare customers !" .Perhaps these things do help to set a positive progressive precedent , at least on the face of things, even if they don't truly change what people may secretly think .
When it comes to music and musicians however . Blacks hold a position of universally recognized prowess in American culture . No doubt that may not as yet extend to classical music . ( Sigh !) ....but things will change because change is the natural way of things even if we struggle to resist it .
Change just SCARES us . It bring with it elements of the unknown ....the suggestion of possible threat .
That black people in the States now prefer to be called " Native African Americans " also bothers me . They are above all AMERICANS . why be associated within your society with a continent that is not your homeland and far, far away .
We ALL originated in Africa so we're all native Africans as a species .
The day I long for in the USA , is the day when it's socially acceptable to call blacks ,blacks ,because that no longer caries any stigmas ..... Same as its fine calling whites , whites . THAT will be the day to celebrate .
And if we now want to atone for a history of social injustices , then perhaps the title " white" deserves its burden of shame .
" We can forgive those who wrong us .....harder it is to forgive those who we have wronged ". Quote from someone .
I think that that is where the whole racism issue in the States has remained rooted . Also these things become institutionalized on both sides, which complicates finding clear pathways to solutions.
Sorry if this topic got me going a bit ..... hope it's not too inflammatory.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-05-18 00:35
If you want to improve diversity at the top levels, you need to first improve diversity at the bottom. There should be more focus on access to music education made available to minority groups and women at the middle school and high school levels. When the pool of candidates for top positions becomes diverse, eventually the winning players will become diverse too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-18 00:58
Quote:
...would be very difficult to prove...
In the example, race was admitted as being the decisive factor - and even left open the possibility that it was used in spite of lesser merit.
We aren't only rewarding someone because of race - we're penalizing someone because of race. We aren't only elevating someone's achievements, we're diminishing someone's achievements based on their race?
That's racism. That's the answer to the question asked in the original post.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-18 01:04
Fuzzy wrote:
> Quote:
> Were two players of extremely similar talent competing for an
> orchestral position in initially blind auditions, and prior to
> job offer, it became clear that one was a minority, I'd be okay
> with affirmative hiring policy among equally talented players.
>
> Are my views racist?
>
> Quote:
the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which banned racial,
> gender, color, national origin, religion, ethnicity and other
> discrimination in employment
>
> Fuzzy
> ;^)>>>
Do you know what frustrates me Fuzzy?
It isn't necessary an opinion different from my own. Rather, it's an opinion that is unclear, and whether by design or not, whether your handle Fuzzy purposefully describes your ambiguity or not, this isn't the first time for you.
Are you trying to say that in giving the minority player the job when of equal talent to the non-minority I have violated the spirit and/or intention of the Civil Rights act, which as written would suggest that I've condoned discrimination against a Caucasian and violated the law even though it was not authored with intent on protecting the majority so much as to right past wrongs against minorities?
Or are you trying to say that in promoting affirmative hiring I've followed the spirit and intention on the Civil Rights act and not discriminated against the Caucasian because they were not a better player?
Do me a favor, try to make it clear what you mean going forward. Proofread twice, press "Post" once. Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-18 01:29
Fuzzy wrote:
> Quote:
...would be very difficult to prove...
>
> In the example, race was admitted as being the decisive factor
> - and even left open the possibility that it was used in spite
> of lesser merit.
I described the players as being of extremely similar talent for purposes of making clear that merit was for all intents and purposes equal.
>
> We aren't only rewarding someone because of race - we're
> penalizing someone because of race. We aren't only elevating
> someone's achievements, we're diminishing someone's
> achievements based on their race?
>
> That's racism. That's the answer to the question asked in the
> original post.
>
> Fuzzy
> ;^)>>>
Then perhaps a broader question needs to be asked. Is racism that seeks to combat prior historical injustices of racism itself necessarily morally wrong?
I suppose it can be in some cases, but by no means it it universally wrong, and in many cases I believe it morally right.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-18 02:23
Every society (or group) which has embraced racism has done so with a firm belief that their racism is justified. The racists never see themselves as the "bad guys." They always see themselves as the heroes. It is one of the fundamental characteristics of racism and racists - the belief that their racism is for the greater good of society. Every time.
I reject racism outright in all its forms.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-05-18 04:21
This conversation (which I honestly want no part of) has been ongoing among major American orchestras for some time now and continues to be discussed. One thing that is evident by what I’ve read here is that very few of you who have commented really have little to no idea what is happening today in this industry and the various cultures within. Unless you’ve been in the middle of it, there’s so much you really don’t know. But the questions posed here are, of course, quite valid.
My one comment would be that Hunter 100 hit the nail on the head by stating that “you need to first improve diversity at the bottom.”
Anyway, for your further reading pleasure?:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-05-18 06:17
Andrew-- I don't think you are misguided. I agree with your assessment. Yes, the changes must take place at a young age-- the school systems, elementary school band programs in particular. Things don't change overnight. I know that's been said for many decades now, but it's true. I agree with the obvious points that were made in 2020 by the BLM movements. After a while, like Covid and the Ukraine, this too became less "newsworthy" and the protests stopped. I know it's easy for a white guy to say things will eventually change and even out for all. But I think that is the case.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-18 10:06
I think that one very significant element behind the matter of the proportional representation of both racial and gender related groups in the various fields of profession within our society , comes down to the fact that whoever we are , we tend to be aware of where our opportunities tend to lie and where they are less likely to( within our particular society that is ).This naturally has a strong influence on what we are likely to dedicate ourselves to career wise and subsequently where our capability merits are likely to end up.
There is NO getting around the fact that the merit of a given individual to represent a given cause / job position is the way to go . Making exceptions to balance some social group proportional representation concept just adds another degrading factor and I don't see how it truly creates fairness within society. It's just that old " Rob Jack to pay Jill " thinking which takes one farther away from the general principles one is striving to defend .
What empowers positive change is a clear and unmuddied grasp of a problem,
You just can't gold plate a turd .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-18 16:42
There's a lot of great conversation to be had here.
Notably, the idea that diversification must start at the lower levels. Also, that "Placing anyone in a position they do not deserve sets them up for failure and resentment by others."
I feel this is where the thread could have a meaningful impact.
Perhaps we could talk about things such as "School Choice" or "School Vouchers" for instance, to help alleviate imbalances in opportunity, at an earlier level, etc? Allowing kids/parents to choose the school their child goes to? School busing programs? Dollars which follow the kids to whichever school they'd like? Etc. I realize some of these things come with their own problems - but it might be worth discussing them, as they very well could remedy (in full or in part) the issue of imbalances that is of concern to this thread.
Also, it should be admitted, that sometimes folks simply are interested in different things depending on their immediate cultural surroundings. For instance, if I live in a city where fishing is the primary industry - the chances are that I'll grow up interested in fishing. If I grow up in a community where farming is the primary industry - the chances are that I'll grow up interested in farming. In either case, the chance that I'll be an investment banker is minimized. I don't believe this is an injustice.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2023-05-18 17:45
A big problem is that the emphasis on standardized testing is resulting in schools eliminating subjects that are not included in the tests. Fine arts, shop, home economics, and work/study programs are all falling by the wayside.
The trend of taking courses in high school for college credit also affects fine arts, as participating in fine arts takes up a lot of time that cannot be spent studying for college level courses. We don't just have a shortage of minorities in fine arts, we have an overall shortage of all races and genders.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-18 19:42
Indeed !
The values that are promoted in schools tend to direct students towards financially secure futures , ( a responsible approach ! ? ) rather than the speculative benefits of perusing the arts . However , the degree to which the arts are exulted in different cultures tends to be reflected in the support and installations of their respective general schooling systems .
I suppose that cultures/ countries where the arts are higher on the schooling agenda ,accept the idea that perusing the arts offers a potential enrichment of life and perhaps contribution to the culture which it's hard to put a price on , so it's not being so heavily weighed up agains studies that offer clearer prospects of financial reward .
I recently got chatting with a young woman working in a small museum in Catalonia. She said that she had a passion for archeology ....in fact she'd got her degree in it on the state education system . I replied that I though that that was fantastic ....but didn't she have to fight to persuade her clearly ordinary working class parents that this was something which offered her a good future .
She thought about this for a moment as if she had never particularly considered this angle .
" No!" She replied " Nobody did !".
While archeology is not exactly the arts, it's probably out there with the economically dodgy career choices .
I tell this account as an example of cultural attitudes towards culture and the arts , which in the case of Catalonia, are clearly very high ranking .
But to return briefly to the matter of ethnic minorities within a society , the power to inspire by one single individual , by achieving broadly celibrated achievements in a given field where members of that group had seemed somehow excluded ,is something that can move mountains and bring on the winds of change .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SEALE45
Date: 2023-05-18 20:58
I am being super honest here, but this is one of the reasons I chose to not pursue a career in music. There were other reasons: instability, covid, etc. But one of them is to open space for others to have it. I went on to pursue a career in driving and am as happy as could be. I hate that we are at this point, but if I can help one person, than I will count it as a success. Just my very brief thoughts on it...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-19 10:22
I'm always somewhat in awe of professional musicians and have great respect for them , not because they've achieved a glamorous position so much as that they've almost without exception really had to work bloody hard to achieve and maintain a livelihood . Right there you have a rather Spartan like " Leave the baby to survive on the mountain for three days just for starters " situation.
So ...to return to topic ... The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that musician selection must be based on merit . Behind the beauty of the arts we bask in is a lot of individuals blood , sweat and tears, which is the real bedrock
of our respective cultures in the arts and the significance they hold within it .
Perfect recipe.....perfect storm !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-19 18:18
This analogy has flaws, but there's actually similarity in the recruiting methods of say a symphony orchestra and the NBA (the US' National Basketball Association.)
Both seek to recruit the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of talent; the "freak shows" of ability if you will. Recruitment is strictly about filling spectator seats and profit.
Now, access to the training tools for each discipline (classical music and basketball) is severely different and unfair, and that's a place where the analogy falls apart. But despite the sport being nearly 75% African American players I have never doubted that the selection process for participation is strictly merit based. No player of any race who plays to its extremely high standards has been turned away based on race. No African American within the league got there on anything other than the strict fairness of their ability and completely deserves on merit to be there. No underproducing employee has ever been kept based on race.
(Now, the unfairness of professional coaching positions and race: another topic.)
We do not seek to diversify most professional sports, and maybe we would (and should) if access to the training was unfair. If horse jumping was something the public paid top dollar to see, good arguments I think could be made to make that sport's tools open to a wider participant base.
..just thinking out loud
Post Edited (2023-05-19 18:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-20 00:58
I think that bringing up basketball really puts this whole matter in a balanced perspective. Here you have a clear example of non proportional representation of social ethnic groups . In this case one could reasonable argue that there stands an injustice against Caucasians.Nobody is likely to get up in arms about that however because that's the ethnic majority .(Hello?...shifting moral sands...solid ground of principals check )
As a Caucasian male , I live in a world which assumes that I am the least deserving of help and support within my society . That's ok by me because I've been lucky , but if I had not, then I might have been a victim of that discrimination .
These " We should balance everything "ideas strike me as kind of a utopian socialism. I'm an advocate of socialistic principals and policies aimed at offering equal opportunities to all from the get go. But the fact remains , " You can take a horse to water...but you can't make it drink " ...and it doesn't matter what color it is . So even if a society does everything right there will emerge inequalities .... So THEN what's the plan ?
Like I've already said , I take the matter of social,ethnic and gender equality very seriously ,but I think this issue deals with ideas of addressing the problem of inequality at a very late stage "Closing the stable door after the horse has fled" .
There's a lot of this madness going on today ..and I really hate it .
I hate it that SecondTry who brought up this issue so sensitively and thoughtfully did so worrying that he might be seen as bigoted.
And SecondTry , I don't know what you think of all I said ....but I got all those horses in there just for you . Ha-ha !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-20 18:30
Julian ibiza wrote:
> In this case one could reasonable argue that there stands an
> injustice against Caucasians.
Julian, I'm sorry, I don't agree that a reasonable case could be made that Caucasians have been disenfranchised by professional basketball: such conclusions perhaps being falsely drawn merely from roster race statistics and not examination of the simple fact that access to the tools by which such players advance has not only not been denied to Caucasians, but more likely African Americans, and yet a greater percentage of this latter race, still a minority, makes its way to the pros.
If anything, and speaking as a Caucasian, I think a case could be made that a greater percentage of the league might fairly be of African American extraction were the same organized sports leagues, and summer camps, and coaching, and mentoring, etc. been equally available to all.
....my $0.02.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-20 23:44
Yes !... You're absolutely right . I retract that nonsense.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
