 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-05 15:21
Is it a thing for players to be 'slightly lifting off' their fingers and left thumb whilst playing bass clarinet?
I had a complaint that as I used cork pads on the LH thumbplate and LH1 on a bass clarinet, the owner who is primarily a sax player (and doesn't play soprano clarinet) said they couldn't 'slightly lift off' without getting squeaks when they could do with the soft, spongy leather pads it had previously.
Surely the fingers and left thumb ought to remain held down on the plates instead of 'slightly lifting off'. I've always maintained finger (and thumb) pressure on the fingerplates whilst playing any instrument with covered action as 'slightly lifting off' will only cause unwanted leaks.
They got around it by sticking silicone rubber discs to the LH1 fingerplate and LH thumbplate to make them feel more spongy. The owner was used to the feel of the soft spongy leather pads that were installed which were both too thick and compromised the venting making the F# (LH1 only) really stuffy.
Personally I don't care for soft, spongy pads with tons of give in them as that only causes regulation problems and firmer pads offer more stability and reliability provided they're seated correctly. And once a fingerplate (or thumbplate) is held closed, it should remain held closed (but not forced closed) instead of 'slightly lifting off', just as any open tonehole on soprano clarinets that are held closed should remain held closed and likewise with any open-standing key that's held closed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2022-03-07 23:02)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2022-03-05 17:19
Chris P.
I'm a doubler and my solution was to put a round felt or even a small cork disc on the thumb key. It seemed that I was unintentionally lifting my thumb off that key particularly when using the register key. What I experienced might be somewhat similar to what your customer is talking about.
On a similar situation, I have added a felt/cork disc to the Bis key on my Yamaha tenor. It seems that Yamaha does not have the Bis key height the same as the B key. I asked my tech about it and he said "Yamaha has made them that way..."
Maybe related but...
Hank
Post Edited (2022-03-05 18:31)
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Author: graham
Date: 2022-03-05 18:59
No.
But on a related point, my bass’s low F sharp/C sharp key closes so rapidly that the pad bounces and causes a delay on transitioning to E/B. I had a softer pad fitted, but only with fractional improvement. Was told that developing a softer lift off in my technique was the only complete fix. If I do that, it works fine, but doing it feels unnatural (and I am not good at it).
graham
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-03-06 09:55
It's not a "thing" if you mean he is basically slightly opening the key for fingerings where it should be closed...? So no, opening keys by mistake is not a "thing".
But it's very reasonable to adjust the instrument to the way they play, even if it's not the theoretical ideal way.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2022-03-06 19:54
As they're primarily a sax player and the left thumb only controls the 8ve key (and low A key on bari), the left thumb can pretty do what it wants on saxes without having a tonehole to cover on them. Same thing with conservatoire system oboes with no added thumbplate. Only that doesn't apply to bass clarinet as the left thumb has to remain on the thumbplate for the majority of the time.
The only adjustment I can allow for in the region of the LH thumb and LH1 is the venting of LH1 and the adjustment between LH1 and the open G vent. The LH thumbplate will always have to close the open G vent no matter what. Adjusting the venting of LH1 will create some lost motion in the linkage between the LH1 thumbplate and the open G vent which can reduce mechanical noise which may occur when doing an F# to open G trill. I have on some occasions added a nylon tipped adjusting screw to the overlever from the open G vent to finely regulate its closure with the LH thumbplate.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-03-07 14:11
To clarify, what I meant is that, first of all, if a cushion over the thumb key works... then why not?
Second of all...
>> Personally I don't care for soft, spongy pads with tons of give in them as that only causes regulation problems and firmer pads offer more stability and reliability provided they're seated correctly. <<
Yes, and what was there previously might have been soft and spongy, but those are not the only options. Good quality regular (i.e. not cork) pads are not soft and spongy. They can feel excellent and are used on most other keys anyway. You probably used those on many of the other keys that also need to be adjusted with other keys, no? This might allow them to play the way they do and be "soft enough", still with good adjustment.
It does sound like they are not using the best technique. Practicing to improve that would be a good idea, but it's not necessarily the solution even when that is the problem.
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-03-07 15:00
I understood that by "thing" you meant - "is it an established bass clarinet technique that some players espouse but I've never heard of"
And if that was the case, then my answer is NO it is NOT.
I do, however, try to play with as light fingers as possible - but I'd never say I wanted my keys to feel spongy (the opposite would be my preference).
However,
I'm used to playing Bass clarinets with the Buffet Bb/double register mechanism. In 2019 I had to borrow a colleagues Selmer bass for a few rehearsals while last minute repairs were made to my Buffet. On the Selmer bass I noticed my thumb lifted off by accident a few times, it felt like the exchange mechanism just pushed up on the thumb every now and again. I recall having the same issue with a Selmer bass I had to play in 2017 when subbing out of town (I borrowed a bass so as to avoid having to deal with the old "bass clarinet hand luggage scenario").
On both occasions it was not the end of the world, I just had to play with a stronger "clasp" than I was used to, but worth noting I have never experienced this on a Buffet bass (just a different mechanism, not trying to say buffet is better - in fact I quite like Selmer basses EXCEPT for the register mechanism).
This might be related to what your customer was experiencing....
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2022-03-07 21:57
The only time my left thumb has any trouble is when the register key is adjusted to press down too low towards the body for my liking. Other than that, it's not a problem for me, but I am a clarinetist first and sax player second, so keeping the LH thumb hole covered is pretty automatic for me.
I've always had a leather pad with a little resonator there, though, never a cork pad, so I can't really say if it would be different at all. I can't imagine a squishy pad being the answer, but then I look at my bass clarinet and realize that most people probably wouldn't like their horns set up like mine, either, so...if it works?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-23 02:16
Just an update:
The owner of this bass (a C series low C Selmer) came over today and was still having trouble with it on certain notes squeaking. I tested the LH thumbplate pad and open G vent pad whilst he was playing using a feeler gauge. Turns out he wasn't 'slightly lifting off' at all as the feeler gauge stayed put and was only released when he fully lifted off.
No issues there, yet he was still having some trouble with some notes squeaking. Then I noticed how close his left index finger was to the throat A key touchpiece and it turned out he was lightly catching the throat A touchpiece on certain notes. On these basses, the entire throat A key and tonehole is very much offset to the left of the instrument (as you're playing) instead of inline with the rest of the LH main action toneholes and the throat A touch itself was easily caught as a result.
Then after a slight bend of the throat A key touchpiece to shift it over to the right by a couple of millimetres, the problem was solved. No more squeaking as there was now some clearance between the throat A touch and his index finger when holding the LH1 fingerplate down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-03-23 13:40
I love a story with a happy ending!
Post Edited (2023-03-24 12:39)
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