 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-01 00:53
Hi! Has anyone ever had a problem with a pad seating at say 12 o’clock AND 6 o’clock, but not at 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock? I’m trying to seat a couple of pads on my bass clarinet and both have this problem. Usually, if a pad isn’t sealing on a side, the opposite side can be pushed down (floated with heat) until both sides are seating evenly. However, how does one do this with the above problem?
You see, if I push on 12 o’clock, for example, it will do nothing for the the unseated sides 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock. Pushing on 6 o’clock....same story.
If I push on 3 o’clock, it may seat 9 o’clock but then 3 o’clock will leak even more. The opposite is true too.
I suppose I could clamp the key to get all sides to seal eventually but I wanted to know what the repair people out there think.
Thank you in advance!
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-07-01 01:23
Before you seat a pad you need to ensure the tone hole is level. Leveling tone holes is an important part of every repad job and is critical for a good seal. What you need to do is make a tone hole leveling tool. You will need to turn a cylinder roughly the size of the pad from some kind of plastic or metal, make sure the ends are perfectly flat! Then you can glue some 400-600 grit sandpaper to one end and some 1000-1500 grit to the other. Cut away the excess sandpaper. To use the tool simply place the tool over the tone hole while applying pressure and twist back and forth. Only go a few twists at a time. Start with the coarse grit until the surface is flat, then move to the fine grit to finish. If there are any chips they will need to be filled with superglue before leveling.
While this is labor intensive, it is the correct way to get a good seal.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-01 01:40
Thanks jdbassplayer!
Is this 100% the result of uneven tone holes? I just want to make sure that it is not about something I am/am not doing.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-07-01 01:46
It could potentially be poor quality pads, or maybe a bent pad cup. But in my experience it's almost always the result of uneven tone holes. Wood tends to shrink in some directions more than others, so it's fairly common to see warped tone holes especially on older instruments.
-Jdbassplayer.
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-01 02:16
I know that leveling the tone holes would be optimum, but have you had any success with putting pressure on a leather pad to conform to the uneven tone hole? FWIW, these pads are on keys that remain closed (F#/C# and Ab/Eb).
I am just cautious about doing anything to the tone holes myself and repairmen in my area are closed due to covid...
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-07-01 02:30
That will cause the seat to become too deep and will likely lead to leaks and a sticky pad down the road, not to mention the glue is probably going to leak out and make a sticky mess of your new pad. If you're going to replace the pad yourself then it should be done the right way, otherwise just wrap the pad cup with cling wrap until you can get to a tech.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-01 04:04
Thank you for your help.
One more question....
Have you encountered this specific kind of unevenness in a tone hole surface before (9 and 3 o’clock not seating, 12 and 6 o’clock seating)?
I’m just curious cause this is not the first time I’ve run into this.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-07-01 05:01
Oh yeah all the time. On older clarinets I often notice that opposite sides of the tone hole are both warped in the same direction. Sometimes it's so bad it looks more like a taco shell than a tonehole XD
I'll see if I can find some pics.
-JDbassplayer.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-07-01 05:04
I've just finished working on a Harry Pedler clari on which the C#/G# at the bottom of the top joint is just a hole drilled through the wood. With no levelled area this gives a hole that is quite tricky to seal. I eventually made a cork pad profiled to fit that specific hole. I've come across this on a Rampone instrument as well. Is there a trick to this?
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-07-01 09:41
Uneven toneholes can also be a result of the wood moving or they were formed uneven if the cutter was blunt, out of balance or the collet holding the cutter was worn. I've seen more toneholes that were dipped at 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock and they were dealt with by levelling them.
Skin pads are often wonky and take some doing to flatten, but leather pads are more pliable and can be bent into shape and then ironed flat before installing them. Cork pads are the least forgiving and should never be installed on anything other than perfectly flat and blemish-free toneholes.
With older clarinets where the C#/G# tonehole is a plain one like LH3 without a countersunk bedplace, I cut a bedplace onto it so I can install a cork pad there. It only needs to be countersunk until you see a perfectly flat tonehole crown formed (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock being the lowest points on a plain tonehole and cut down to that depth), but no deeper than it needs to be as retaining the maximum height of the C#/G# tonehole is more critical on some clarinets than others.
That's why you usually see German and Oehler system clarinets with a bushed C#/G# tonehole to increase its height - also seen on some A clarinets. If you do choose to bush the tonehole, you'd have to use a much thinner pad or adjust the angle of the pad cup so a normal thickness pad sits evenly in its pad cup which is what you want to achieve with all other pads (only some side keys won't always allow then to sit evenly).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-07-04 08:24
Attachment: 20180226_214528.jpg (96k)
>> Have you encountered this specific kind of unevenness in a tone hole surface before (9 and 3 o’clock not seating, 12 and 6 o’clock seating)? <<
If those refer to the top of the clarinet (i.e. 12 being the mouthpiece direction) then that is by far the more common unevenness of tone holes. From tone hole direction (i.e. clarinet horizontal) the front and back of the key cup sides of the tone hole would be low.
The opposite is also possible, but much less likely.
Other possibilities are as mentioned, a distorted pad, or a bent key cup, though the latter is more often than not in the opposite direction (front being low, although the opposite can happen too).
As a test, before you create a significant seat, heat the glue just enough to rotate the pad 90 degrees and see if the problems remains the same or changes to the other direction.
Re leveling the tone hole, sorry to say I'm not crazy about the method described by jdbassplayer. This can leave a very wide rim, especially for the high sides, which get flattened more until you even touch the low sides.
If you can turn a rod to make a tool, you can drill a small hole in the middle and turn an angle just shallower than the tone hole (so it touches the top and not the bottom of the countersink). This will level it but keep the angle and not widen the rim. You can then use a flat tool for a final very light touch up.
I prefer steel cutters and since all the ones available from repair tool suppliers are too shallow IME I make them myself (photo attached), then finish with a flat tool just so the rim isn't too sharp.
Re using more force to squish a pad to seal, sure you could use a soft pad to compensate for this, you might have problems or might not. It could spring back and require more force to seal... or not. It might become sticky because of it... or not. It usually won't be as reliable and long lasting as not doing that, and likely to not have as good of a feel too.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2020-07-04 09:18
Chris P Wrote:
"With older clarinets where the C#/G# tonehole is a plain one like LH3 without a countersunk bedplace, I cut a bedplace onto it so I can install a cork pad there. It only needs to be countersunk until you see a perfectly flat tonehole crown formed (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock being the lowest points on a plain tonehole and cut down to that depth), but no deeper than it needs to be as retaining the maximum height of the C#/G# tonehole is more critical on some clarinets than others."
Thanks for that, Chris. I'll give it a try.
Tony F.
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-06 05:35
I ended up putting pressure on a soft pad like Tony F mentioned above. It has been working pretty well so far. The pad remains closed and has kept its shape for the past day.
I know that having a perfect tone hole is the better route but I need to play it now and refacing the tone hole is not an option at this time.
We'll see how long it lasts but so far so good!
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Author: dibble
Date: 2020-07-06 05:36
I meant to say that clarinibass mentioned it, not Tony F. Sorry.
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