 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-05-28 07:35
Has anyone tried this mouthpiece?
https://backunmusical.com/collections/mouthpieces/products/vocalise-cg-bass-mouthpiece?variant=32122516439125
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-29 05:50
I'm waiting for someone else to try it first. And maybe tell us the facing measurements.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-05-29 06:50
Backun calls the mouthpiece "open/long"
When I requested more info from Backun customer support directly, I was told that "...at the request of the creator, we can not provide measurements for the Vocalise series."
Their comparison chart puts it in the range of a Vandoren B46-B50.
Kessler and Sons has measured the tip opening at 2.10-2.25, depending on measuring point.
https://www.kesslerandsons.com/product/vocalise-cg-bass-clarinet-mouthpiece-by-hawkins-backun/
Post Edited (2020-05-29 06:51)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-29 08:02
"...at the request of the creator, we can not provide measurements for the Vocalise series."
That's absurd. Clark Fobes publishes tip openings and facing lengths and it's not like I could take those and recreate his mouthpieces.
Until they publish those numbers I'm going to assume that means:
"We can't really get these all coming out consistently, so we're just not gonna tell you what they're supposed to be."
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2020-05-29 21:43
I agree with Max.... absurd. It smacks of a very unattractive elitist attitude.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-05-29 22:23
Well since these are made by CNC, and are "a mouthpiece that is machined to unbelievably high tolerances" they should all be the same, no?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2020-05-29 22:44
We're not asking for the curve or interior dimensions ... though anyone with measuring equipment and patience could grab a pretty accuate fscsimile.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-31 21:24
You'd have to buy it first, though. And the veil of hand-wavey secrecy definitely makes me disinclined to buy. And I say that as someone who definitely buys too many bass clarinet mouthpieces.
I think all sophisticated buyers understand that tip opening on its own won't tell you everything, but it can be a useful point of reference.
Brad Behn publishes his tip openings, and I'd say that his mouthpieces play very little like other mouthpieces at the same tip openings. But he respects his customer's intelligence and ability to understand nuance enough to publish them.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-05-31 21:47
Exactly.
Since the mouthpiece is made by CNC, all parameters have been determined and are precisely represented in the CAD file, so none of this is an unknown.
Perhaps this has something to do with Backun not wanting to endanger their relationship with Pomarico?
Also, interesting that many mouthpiece makers are using CNC to fabricate the initial shape and then hand finishing before offering to the musician, while this mouthpiece is just straight from CNC, with no hand finishing.
Post Edited (2020-05-31 21:52)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-06-02 01:41
Warning: The following will probably make it fairly obvious, but I am not a CNC technician or a mouthpiece maker.
In talking with some other mouthpiece makers and people who know CNC machining, it sounds like Backun probably has better machines than certain others and the design has been optimized so that it doesn't need hand work after machining. One of the traits I have seen in the completely CNC-ed mouthpieces I've encountered (D'Addario, Prescott, Backun) is a fairly smooth, concave profile of the baffle area behind the tip rail. Likewise in saxophone mouthpieces, all of the initial fully-CNC designs (no hand work) had step baffles, not rollovers.
By comparison, the mouthpieces I've encountered that have more hand finishing done after CNC machining (Fobes, Behn) seem to be able to leave a little more material there.
The Prescott does have a bit less of a dropoff behind the tip rail than the D'Addario or Backun, but I would hypothesize that the simpler shape (concave or step baffle) is easier to machine and easier to produce accurately without human intervention. The subtleties of the baffle area behind the tip on a clarinet mouthpiece are probably hard to even quantify in a CNC program.
I am purely speculating here, but I'd guess that, once you have an excellent machine (probably costing a fortune), you still need to come up with a design that is relatively easy for it to get right. I would guess that Behn and Fobes are having their CNC "blanks" for their high-end mouthpieces made with a little extra material in the places they know they will want to work on.
I think it's an interesting time for intermediate mouthpieces (Vandoren competitors). We're going to see some really cool and creative work done and I really do think Backun is doing some interesting work here. I actually did buy a Vocalise Bb clarinet mouthpiece almost entirely because I thought the manufacturing process was so cool.
It's just frustrating they don't seem to trust their consumer enough to publish specs and insist on holding that as proprietary information. Especially now that these CNC mouthpiece designs more or less have to be unique (rather than just different facings on Zinner blanks), it would be harder than ever to try to copy them based on tip opening and facing numbers alone.
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Author: Patrick
Date: 2020-06-02 02:40
I am glad to see there are more options of mouthpieces out there rather than someone else's take on a Zinner. I am sure there are people who have measured the Vocalise mouthpiece.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-06-02 05:29
In addition to CNC there are now mouthpieces made with 3-D printing.
SYOS, https://www.syos.co/en was started by Pauline Aveno, who studied wind instrument acoustics for her PhD dissertation.
Here is their page where you can actually design your own clarinet mouthpiece:
https://www.syos.co/en/shop/products/custom-clarinet-mouthpiece/clarinet-type
Post Edited (2020-06-02 08:33)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-06-02 11:44
Numbers don’t mean a thing. It’s the playing experience that counts.
For those speculating please remember that the mouthpiece designer Mr Richard Hawkins made it very clear that he didn’t want his numbers released. This is his personal prerogative that should be respected.
Disclaimer I am a Backun artist.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2020-06-03 17:05)
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-06-02 22:43
Numbers help musicians make informed choices when choosing their mouthpieces and for matching reed to mouthpiece. It’s the playing experience that counts.
Fixed it for you.
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Author: Patrick
Date: 2020-06-03 04:00
I like the way Backun makes available a chart showing the model comparisons to other makers. It takes away the need of numbers. I liked the G model. Reminded me of a BD5 without all the resistance.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-06-03 04:14
It is really great to be able to get the opinions of a Backun sponsored artist when discussing one of their products. Certainly a formidable CV!
https://backunmusical.com/blogs/artists/peter-cigleris
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-06-03 14:21
Attack me all you like Tim but my point stands. For the record my opinion was on the numbers you are so fond of not the opinion of the mouthpieces themselves. You’ll find them on the Dawkes YouTube channel and yes I’m playing on the G model.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-06-03 22:25
Peter, I never stated that the numbers told the whole story, only that it is disingenuous to not list specifications so that musicians, based on what they are currently playing and are used to, can make the determination that this new design might work for them.
You are absolutely, 100% correct that it is the playing experience that counts, and as a professional musician, you have undoubtedly had to work hard to understand what works for you and what gives you the sound you desire. We all do this within the context of the type of music we are performing.
Have you been able to play test the CG? What was the playing experience like for you?
Post Edited (2020-06-04 02:02)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2020-06-03 23:49
Yes I’ve tried the CG clarinet mouthpiece along with the Z model. A lockdown video highlighting my first impressions should be going live sometime.
The experience of the CG was positive and the material adds a rather interesting weight to the sound. The tone was rich and full with ease of articulation like with all the Vocalise models. I’m personally very happy on the Vocalise G but the CG could well be an option in the future.
Now looking forward to playing the bass mouthpiece when they arrive in the UK.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-06-04 02:04
Please share your impressions once you have played the bass mouthpiece!
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