 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-03-31 09:27
I really admire Eugene’s playing. I’m not sure if it’s just in my head, but I can really tell he uses double lip by his sound quality which is really great!
https://youtu.be/-zD2xzcJGp8
Post Edited (2019-03-31 09:27)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-31 18:06
Thanks so much for posting! I am not familiar with Mr. Mondie. He has a wonderfully delicate and musical approach.
John Yeh is also a double lip player and for about two years while studying with him while in college I used double lip. The first thing you notice when you do is that the clarinet rocks back and forth if you are the least bit overly zealous about your finger movements (or any movement really). The other thing is that it really does make the sound you make more delicate.
Switching back of course then made single lip feel brutish by comparison. But then single lip is more stable and it does allow more extraneous physicality. For me, because I started that way and because I did appreciate more heft of style switching back just made more sense.
I do feel though that Eugene Mondie and Harold Wright offer something truly special to the world of clarinet sound.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-03-31 19:35
A quote from the Dansr site topic on The Vanishing Double Lip Embouchure.
"Some of today’s leading players who use double lip embouchure are Vandoren Artists John Yeh and Eugene Mondie, as well as the late Kalmen Opperman and his students Richard Stoltzman and Steve Hartman."
Post Edited (2019-03-31 19:36)
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-03-31 20:47
I switched to double lip playing my freshman year in HS after reading about it here on the board. That was in 2011! I even used it in marching band. I have found stability not to be an issue anymore, though can’t really explain why besides my embouchure all around is stronger. It also has made playing small tip opening mouthpieces easier and more flexible. When I played an open mouthpiece one semester (I had just started playing in the orchestra and thought I needed an open mouthpiece to be heard) I HAD to play single lip. Fast forward to now and I can not imagine playing comfortably single lip ever again.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-03-31 21:00
I am not sure that I would characterize double lip as creating a more delicate tone any more than I would generalize other aspects of clarinet playing. There may be certain similarities in certain players, but there is a lot more in the approach to the instrument and concept.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-03-31 21:17
As I wrote that about imposing a delicate sound I was trying to remember exactly what I was going through all those years ago. It would be unimaginable that I changed reed strength (and now that I think about it, that is one thing that REALLY should have happened!) since I was a Vandoren #4 guy through thick and thin. I think what I mean is that there is an immediacy to the sound, kinda like taking a magnifying glass to the minutia of the attack and the sustain. So there was no need to "push" anything. The only other analogy (and probably a much worse one) that I can think of is that it is like walking a dog with one of those collars that wraps around the snout. The dog does not yank like he would on a standard collar.
I'll probably regret that comparison too.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-03-31 22:25
Double-lip embouchures aside, I thought this was the most mechanical and unmusical performance from all three players of what I've always thought to be a charming Reinicke movement.
I didn't listen further.
Tony
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-03-31 23:28
I enjoyed the clarinet playing. Especially since he didn’t play with the overly heavy and spread sound I hear a lot more these days. As for musical choices, indefinitely disagree with the groups approach. And I’m thinking the viola was having a bad day.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-04-01 00:22
I’m with Tony — “mechanical” is a good way to describe the performance.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-04-01 01:07
There's no way that 'good' clarinet playing can be part of an unmusical performance.
Your job is to make music.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-04-01 01:10
And, actually, his clarinet playing was BAD in relation to the music.
Tony
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-04-01 04:49
Paul- thanks for clarifying your statement. There are certainly differences for the player. One result in playing double lip is that it is much harder to "muscle" or bite the reed into submission. It certainly helps one learn to play a little more relaxed and encourages use of a responsive set up. It is not that it cannot be forced, but certainly it would be a bit more difficult or require steel chops. Double can also be a great practice technique to apply in fixing some playing issues that one might have. Whatever works to get the desired result is what should be used.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-04-01 05:29
I have to say I am not too familiar with Reinicke. I sought out some other examples of this work and a few others and have to say, the music is rather mechanical. And as if I needed further convincing I ran into some Mozart, Mendelsohnn and Francaix. Mechanical may just be what Reinicke calls for.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2019-04-01 19:43
It's been a while since we talked and I don't have time to re-listen right now, but I think we discussed this when he was a guest on Clarineat.
https://www.clarineat.com/60-artist-eugene-mondie/
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: antaresclar
Date: 2019-04-01 21:41
Thank you Tony for being one of the few people here who stands up for music, and true music making - and who does not automatically slavishly heap praise on every clarinetist, no matter how they actually play, just because they play in an orchestra.
GZ.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-04-02 00:03
Thank you, Garrick.
It's rather unusual here to get a sequence of posts that shows directly the dislocation between what is said about a player and what they actually produce musically.
We also learn another something about what ..........Paul Aviles's credentials and preoccupations are. That's an important consideration on this list.
How any proper musician could take seriously a performance such as the one linked to beggars belief.
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-04-02 00:34
Ok let me put Reinicke aside for the moment (he can't help not being Brahms).
I was listening once more to this and realized the piano sounds more like one of those small things you buy for a toddler. If you check out the micing, you have one spot mic on each performer (most likely in the worst "spot" for each) rather than a stereo pair placed up and in front of the group. There is plenty of room to assign some blame here because then someone "mixed down" what the the balance should be for the group! So neither the individuals sound as they should nor does the ensemble.
Also we seem to be taking shots at someone who clearly has earned his coveted spot in a pretty decent orchestra.
Here is Mr. Mondie at Vandoren in New York:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yK4aXpjSxA
At least in this recording you can tell he's a good clarinet playing musician.
Anyway, the point of this whole exercise was double lip playing. There are good reasons to try it and great players who have used it in the past and great players who continue to use it.
Hopefully living great double lip players will find better recording engineers and some decent music to perform.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-04-02 00:42
It's nothing to do with the recording, or with Reinicke.
None of the three is a musician, and neither are you.
Tony
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-04-02 01:05
I thought the performance was fine. The clarinet playing was rather refreshing from the usual heavy tone that is more common. The audience seems to have really enjoyed it. And in the end, that’s what really matters. We have to be careful though not to take our own opinions too seriously! They are after all as common as dirt.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-04-02 01:16
I think Tony and I are looking at a new cottage industry.
It'll be like those DNA services (ie 23andMe). You tell us what you don't like about Reinicke and we tell you all about you.
It's very expensive though so if you have to ask how much we charge, you can't afford it.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2019-04-02 01:42
>> I thought the performance was fine. >>
And neither are you a musician, though that was obvious from the start.
Tony
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-04-02 02:28
I don't like where this is going.
This a site to share opinions, not to be personal about anyone's abilities.
We all have some abilities or we wouldn't visit here. And we are here to learn from each other. Let's keep it that way. If there are grudges or the like, please handle them off-line.
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Author: steamedhams
Date: 2019-04-02 02:48
If Mr. Pay could climb down from his ivory and boxwood tower for a moment, he could plainly see that despite his considerable musical knowledge and respectable achievements, his shameless name-calling and gatekeeping are wholly inappropriate. As a longtime reader of this forum, I have appreciated many of Mr. Pay’s past contributions, but behavior such as this is unnecessarily crass and most unwelcome. I fail to see why he seems to relish in tearing down other musicians (regardless of whether or not he would use that term) and why his toxic presence on this forum is still tolerated. If this is his idea of an April Fool’s prank, I can only say it is in very poor taste.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2019-04-02 04:44
I'm with Tony on this one. Surely I can't be the only one to notice this new trend in the past few years to erase the clarinet of all its brilliance. To me this style of playing is just so boring, and it seems to be an epidemic in the clarinet world in the U.S.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-04-02 06:05
Dave, you are correct. Even in the flute world, the fine players are regretting the followers of Galway, all flash and not much music. But you cannot criticize here for anyone's preference, maybe teach them or enlighten them, not degrade them for the purpose of making yourself feel superior. If you are superior, please teach us why graciously, and we may follow - or disagree.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2019-04-02 06:05
The Reinecke performance does come across as bland to me, plus my ears kept complaining about intonation problems. Bear in mind, I'm NOT a musician, but a member of the Omnipotent Audience.
I see little wrong with criticizing pieces and performances that one for abstract reasons doesn't like, other than its almost always being useless. However, it's worse than useless to sling negative labels at people who hear things differently; in that situation it's about the slinger.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2019-04-02 06:14
Quote:
I have to say I am not too familiar with Reinicke. I sought out some other examples of this work and a few others and have to say, the music is rather mechanical... Mechanical may just be what Reinicke calls for.
Yah, nothing comes to mind when I think of German Romanticism quite like the descriptor "mechanical."
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2019-04-02 07:22
Quote:
...and why his toxic presence on this forum is still tolerated.
It’s awful hard to take your concern for the BBoard seriously since this is your first post, ”steamedhams”.
I would also prefer that Mr Pay not comment against others posting, but I’ll put up with some objectionable statements for the benefit of hearing his thoughts. Paul Aviles certainly isn’t going to back down and will represent his thoughts as he chooses to.
Tony’s no “WhitePlainDavs” or whoever that jerk was.
On another note...brycon: exactly right!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: JAS
Date: 2019-04-02 08:03
I'm increasingly convinced that artistry in its most admirable form requires grace and generosity of spirit.
This could have been a productive discussion about the qualities of a specific performance and its place in broader contexts. That would be a welcome addition to dozens of posts each month about serial numbers and accessories. Instead, it's a sideshow on the board.
These discussions, because they involve the efforts and emotions of human beings, both the performers and commentators, require gracious spirits. I can certainly understand the urge to speak up and say what you had to say for the sake of defending and promoting a standard of artistry. I can't imagine feeling that it was necessary to dump on other human beings so gratuitously. It only served to remove them from the conversation.
It was an opportunity for an artist to build a musical community in its artistic discernment. Not taken.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2019-04-02 16:45
"None of the three is a musician, and neither are you."
Are the insults necessary?
Just asking as someone new to this group (and to the clarinet) who is appreciating learning by reading through these discussions.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2019-04-02 17:06
Quote:
Surely I can't be the only one to notice this new trend in the past few years to erase the clarinet of all its brilliance. To me this style of playing is just so boring, and it seems to be an epidemic in the clarinet world in the U.S.
There certainly is a trend that is becoming more popular among some with an effort to remove any perception of brilliance, brightness, focus or ring. This seems to also carry over to the musical phrasing where efforts are taken to smooth over any possible edge and in some cases can create a rather lifeless performance.
I’ll reserve judgement on the performance at hand as the miking and mix is not helping the sound of the performance.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2019-04-02 18:07
What I've been listening to, including numerous YouTube recordings of recent performances, does not indicate any trend toward lifeless playing, either of the clarinet or of other instruments. Some performances are more communicative than others.
That Reinecke piece strikes me as difficult to bring to life. It wouldn't do to treat it like Brahms, for example. I might want to become more familiar with his other works.
As far as the sound of the clarinet, in the last couple years there seems to be more of a trend toward less dark, more complex sounds, especially by younger players. Individuals seem to be deliberately going after different sounds rather than following the pack. Caveat, I listen to much less than some people better informed.
I too hope Tony Pay continues to visit and comment in whatever form he likes. His apology above is, ah, noteworthy.
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2019-04-02 19:56
Beth, it is NOT usual here, that is why I gave a gentle 'slap on the wrist'. And it won't continue as you can see on the last 14 posts. We don't like it. Welcome, and keep coming back for more clarinet information.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-04-02 22:28
Perhaps some here are having a bad week and are taking it out on others over the internet. This is a common problem these days. I would like to think the clarinet community would rather work to bring each other up, not put each other down.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2019-04-06 23:44
I found the viola and piano both leading the ensemble when required but the clarinet never took charge. From this glimpse of Eugene Mondie he appears to be a rather subtle , delicate player. He wasn’t unmusical but rather very intimate in his playing. I did take into account the recording levels.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-04-07 00:37
I would argue that there is no way to really know what the levels were in context. The clarinet mic is near the bell. If I were the person mixing down the three individual tracks, the first thing that would stick out is that the lower notes of the clarinet would be louder than the shorter tube notes. To counter that you, as an engineer, apply some (dirty word coming).....compression. Compression will even out some of that dynamic difference (great for pop music), but it will take away a good bit if whatever loud/soft moments Mr. Mondie actually imposed on the music.
So it's more than just the "levels" amongst the three parts.
VERY poor micing choice on this tracking session.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jura82
Date: 2019-04-07 01:38
Two words: dry recording. No reverb, no ambience sound. Because of that, it seems like lifeless concert. Mics are too close, cardioid I think. For classical recording, I agree with Paul: poor micing.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2019-04-08 15:55
I've heard many players sound very good playing double lip. I've also heard many players sound very good playing single lip. I've often encouraged many students to try double lip for a while, especially if they bite or constrict but I've never encouraged anyone to permanently change unless they wanted to. I have nothing at all against it but don't see the necessity for it to get a truly beautiful tone. One thing I learned from Anthony Gigliotti in the 4-5 lessons I took with him was keeping my upper lip tucked in the top of mouthpiece more for firm support and use a thin pad on the top for your teeth to duplicate any positive effect of double lip. (Some people prefer a thicker pad). I found it to be a positive effect. Each to their own.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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