 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-08 08:57
Can anyone explain what is (physically) different about these Vandoren mouthpieces (I suspect it's the bore for starters).
Here's what I think I know. The M30 is for French and the M30D is for French and German clarinets, with the latter intent in making French clarinets sound more German, or German clarinets more French.
(I know, I know, in part YOU make it sound more French/German).
The cork on the M30D is longer...German specs. So if it can play on a French clarinet does one go out and buy a special barrel with longer German specs?
To point: I've tried the M30D on my R13 and it doesn't play anymore in or out of tune for me than expressly French mouthpieces, but the mouthpiece does stick ever so little out of the top of the barrel. Is this bad?
Stuff's been posted on the board about each mouthpiece but I can't seem to find any "compare and contrast" information on these two mouthpieces and their differences/similarities.
Thanks.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-04-08 05:37
The D indicates Duetch Concept. The idea seems to be to produce a universal French/Oehler mouthpiece. See:
http://dansr.com/vandoren/news/21/vandoren-brings-whole-new-concept-to-clarinet-mouthpieces/
Tony F.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-04-08 12:34
As I understand it the OP asks for specific details. None of which are contained in any of the Vandoren propaganda. Does anyone have specific details?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-08 10:47
Tony F.: thanks for the lead to dansr.com. I'll contact them and see if they have more info. In the meantime, if anyone knows more, especially whether I'm suppose to use some specific barrel given the longer length tenon on the "D" mouthpiece, I'd appreciate knowing.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-04-08 15:19
I don't see how a mouthpiece could play the same on both German and French bores. The resistance of the clarinets are not the same.
Steve Ocone
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Author: TomA ★2017
Date: 2014-04-08 15:40
I have both an M30 and an M30D. The D definitely has a longer tenon and a slightly bigger bore. As nearly as I can measure, the facing curves are identical. The D has a slightly wider tip rail, and of course grooves for a string ligature.
The D fits perfectly in my Boehm barrels, but I suspect it had been turned down a bit, as a different M30D I tried would not go in. It does stick out a bit, but interestingly the intonation is the same as the M30.
I don't play either one at the moment, but when I was using them, I preferred the sound of the D model, as did my (German) teacher. Sounded more "German". It worked especially well with RueLepic 3-3.5 reeds.
He told me that this mp was popular among the Austrian clarinetists, who use it on their German system clarinets, making them sound more "French". Then someone got the idea to use it on Boehm to make a more German sound...
Tom
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-08 12:08
I agree Mr Ocone. What I am surmising though is that if one could imagine a sound that is a perfect blend of that thought of as French and that thought of as German, the M30D permits the French system player to come closer to that blended sound from one direction, while the German system player to come closer to that blended sound from the other direction.
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Author: sdr
Date: 2014-04-08 17:56
My M30D has thicker rails than either of my two M30's. The M30D also has a more "covered" sound --- fewer high harmonics to my ear (none of that silvery thread of sound to helps a tone carry to the back of the hall).
-sdr
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-08 18:29
Sdr : covered as in there 'a a cover or filter over the silveryness as you put it, of higher notes?
I too have noticed that it least in terms of decibels (I realize there other factors, intrinsic to the player or not, to the sound traveling other than pure acoustical "gain") the mouthpiece plays softer for me. Do you think that maybe it might not be ideal for orchestra work (because of this?)
And if do, what might substitute for it well in your opinion (e.g. the M30 (minus the "D")) ?
Post Edited (2014-04-08 14:30)
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-02 01:27
Hi, yesterday I had the opportunity to play test and measure an M30D. Just in case anyone is still waiting for a description of WHAT these mouthpieces actually are (instead of uninformative sales descriptions from Vandoren)
- Tenon is the same size as on my Zinner blank mouthpieces from Lomax and Hawkins.
- As described above, a thick tip rail (I didn't compare this to the other Vandoren mouthpieces with thick rails, but from memory it didn't look much thicker than B40 or the Pyne/Johnston mouthpieces that are designed with thick rails).
- the baffle has a deep scoop and a lateral concavity more pronounced than the Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces (taking brightness out of the sound)
- The throat is narrow (compared to Zinner and my measurements of Selmer and a vintage french blank). At the crown the sidewalls have a slight bullet similar to 13 series.
- I didn't not have gauges to measure the bore, but the mouthpiece played quite well in tune on (tuning compared to 13 series and Zinner based blanks) a Buffet Festival, tested using barrels by buffet, Zinner and Schwenk und Seggelke.
Now here is the interesting bit. I measured the facing using Morgan gauges- I am aware that there is often an element of innacuracy here and that these numbers must be taken with a "grain of salt". In the past my measurements have been very close to those made by Mike Lomax and Brad Behn for what that's worth.
Using the Morgan system I came up with- 40, 24, 12, 6 and a tip of 1.08 (Symetrical, and yes, sitting right on those even numbers with the glass lined up with the extreme tip of the mouthpiece).
SO much closer than the French M30, for THIS ONE at least.
I played it with a V12 3.5, found it easy to adjust to (compared to my Lomax A3- for the reeds I like I would personally shorten the facing a few points to bring a bit of "compression"/focus into the sound), a bit lacking in power and colour (I suspect the long facing contributed to this) but very even response and tone quality through the registers. This will of course vary with each player so not much point in elaborating here.
I'm not buying one today, and probably not the mouthpiece for those interested in qualities of brightness and "ring" being inherent in the blank, though (as I said) results may (will) vary.
At any rate- not a mouthpiece to be rejected because you might not be happy with open facings (I'm not) and this example had little similarity with the French style M30s or 13 series mouthpieces that I have examined and played.
dn
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2015-07-02 02:49
I bought a new M30 and M30D recently. Vandorens seems to have lessened the difference in tip rail length. Compared to the ones I purchased a year ago the M30 has a longer tip rail and the M30D a shorter. Previously the M30D looked like an M30 on steroids.
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Author: donald
Date: 2015-07-02 09:08
Hi there, what exactly do you mean by "longer" tip rail? The tip rail runs the width of the mouthpiece, maybe you mean "thicker"?
Post Edited (2015-07-02 09:58)
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Author: kclau
Date: 2016-10-10 13:00
What does M30D look like in terms of beak design? Is it similar to "Traditional" or Profile 88?
How about its pitch? A440 or A442?
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-10-11 01:30
"How about its pitch? A440 or A442?"
Close to or even lower than the 13-series. Bore dimension is close to some editions of the M30 13, smaller than other editions but bigger than all regular M30s. The tenon and the entire mouthpiece are longer than both M30 and M30 13.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2016-10-12 04:15
I have two M30 D 13 series facings and two regular M30 13 series Vandoren pieces.
I distinctly dislike the colour or lack of colour in the timbre of the D concept in this mouthpiece. As for sound while even it just does not have much go and jump..dynamics are too smoothed out on the D concept M30..it this area I think the B40 D may be better but have yet to try them. I will stick with the M30 regular thanks for playing situations...there is probably a load of people who like the D but for me it is inflexible in the upper altissimo and just plays dull across the break.
David Dow
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