 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2014-12-29 07:10
Hello I have an R13 Bb, Vintage A, Vandoren CL6, D'Addario Reserve Classic, and a BG Grand Duo.
So the problem I have is that when I try to tune my clarinet from Clarion G and Altissimo G the Altissimo G seems to be 20 cents sharp, and the way to fix it is to pull out 2 MMs. Is that ok? Or is it too far to pull out?
The reed part I'm wondering about is the idea that Ridenour has. To play Clarion C and G then to slur up to Altissimo E and then Upper Altissimo A. Is that a good indicator in telling that it's a balanced reed? Also, when I do try to slur up to the A, after adjusting it for a long time, I still can't or I sound like I'm struggling. When I do manage to play the A to pop it seems like that the next day I can't. What's going on? Weird thing is that when I play the Upper A on my A clarinet it can play it just fine without any struggle, but if I use the same reed on the Bb the A doesn't come out or struggles to come out.
I was thinking that it maybe a reed strength problem, because sometimes I do get air when I play piano and from the throat tones, however when I did try to play a 4 and it seems like the reed plays fine out the box. The problem is that I'm afraid that I can't adjust it (if I can't play the high A) and it will weaken 3 days later. Also, how do I know if a clarinet reed has a warped table because, I know the finger method of rocking it back and forth, but I heard it was ok if it rocked a little, so how much is too much then?
Another confusion is that when I look at the chart for the CL6 on what reeds can be used it seems like that the maximum reed strength it can use is 3 1/2 Vandoren V12 which is the same as the D'Addario Reserve Classic 3.5. The weird part is the I use a 4.0+ Classic, so could that cause any problems?
Bottom line:
1. Is 2mm too much to pull out from the middle
2. Is playing C-G-E-A an accurate representation of a balanced reed
3. No matter how much I try sometimes I can't get a reed to play Upper Altissimo A
3A. And if I do the next day I can't play the Upper Altissimo A
3B. Should I move the strength down to a 4?
3C. How do I know if a clarinet reed has a warped table?
4. The CL6 chart says the 3 1/2 V12 is the maximum strength it can use, but I use a D'Addario Reserve Classic 4+ is that causing some problems?
Post Edited (2014-12-29 07:21)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-29 08:28
Hi Mr. Yeo:
When you say you tune from Clarion and Altissimo G do you really mean open (i.e. Chalumeau) "G" to 3 left finger (i.e. Clarion) "G"?
Second, when you tune, do you first use the open "G" and adjust it with the barrel? Thereafter, do you tune Clarion "G" by separating the upper joint from the lower joint, NOT with the barrel?
I hope so. It seems from your post you are at some point doing middle of the clarinet tuning adjustments.
(Mr. Ridenour's, who you mentioned, approach to tuning.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYx3pj0L790
"The reed part I'm wondering about is the idea that Ridenour has. To play Clarion C and G then to slur up to Altissimo E and then Upper Altissimo A. Is that a good indicator in telling that it's a balanced reed?"
By Mr. Ridenour's own word, as he talks about how to test balance in a reed using his ATG reed balancing system, I'll say no.
His test for balance comes in turning the mouthpiece, temporarily of course, to one side, and blowing the reed, noting resistance, and then do that again for the other side.
The harder to play side is the one that may need to be thinned down.
Mr. Yeo, what if anything are you doing in the way of reed adjustment to make the very issues you report with this "C, G, E, A" test more manageable?
If your answer is "nothing," I am of the belief that your single best cure to succeeding with this "C, G, E, A" test is to learn reed adjustment.
Secondly, are you breaking in reeds, playing them only a little bit at first, and working their play time up over the course of a couple of days? That would be another good thing to try.
Perhaps you are working with reeds right at the margin of acceptable play, such that problems on your "A" clarinet, don't manifest on your "Bb."
How are you incorporating your two mouthpieces into this testing? The CL6 has...as a result of Vandoren just publishing these metrics, a 1.135mm tip opening, while you haven't stipulated with of the three D'Addario Reserves you are using.
The X0's got a 1 mm opening, the X5 a 1.05mm opening, and the X10 a 1.12 opening.
Clearly, tip opening isn't everything, but its a staring point for comparison.
And by the way these metrics,
http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/reserve_mouthpiece_index.page?sid=d4b863ef-5dc5-4702-a201-ea227e2db567#blade3
you see when you mouse over each mouthpiece may be for the Rico Reserve line of reeds, not D'Addario Reserve: its 2 new reed products being differently designed.
Maybe our Dave Blumberg can advise on whether this webpage's been updated for the D'Addario reed product offerings, or if the Rico Reserve and 2 new D'Addario reed products compare in strength with the same numbers.
"Is 2mm too much to pull out from the middle?"
IMHO I wouldn't go much further, opting instead to acquire a shorter barrel. Other posters may disagree.
"No matter how much I try sometimes I can't get a reed to play Upper Altissimo A"
Try different strength reeds around what you're using. Learn reed adjustment. Break in reeds slowly. See if you can take in more of the mouthpiece without affecting other notes. Snug that mouthpiece with not only your jaw, but your side cheek muscles.
"How do I know if a clarinet reed has a warped table?"
Put it up against a piece of glass. Examine it on the glass for places where the underside of the reed doesn't contact the glass, if any.
"The CL6 chart says the 3 1/2 V12 is the maximum strength it can use, but I use a D'Addario Reserve Classic 4+ is that causing some problems?"
First, I'd need a conversion chart, ideally a direct one from V12 to D'Addario Reserve Classic. Do they compare with the same numbers on strength?
Next, I'd take that chart with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't deviate far from the manufacturer's recommendations, despite, I believe, players like Morales playing relative open mouthpieces with, I think, synthetic 4's.
(Point being, do what works for you, more than practice religious adherence to charts that are useful as a starting point.)
Hopefully more people will have ideas here, and we'll all have better advice when you answer some of the questions I've posed.
Good luck.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2014-12-29 10:23
WhitePlainsDave wrote:
> Hi Mr. Yeo:
>
> When you say you tune from Clarion and Altissimo G do you
> really mean open (i.e. Chalumeau) "G" to 3 left finger (i.e.
> Clarion) "G"?
>
> Second, when you tune, do you first use the open "G" and
> adjust it with the barrel? Thereafter, do you tune Clarion "G"
> by separating the upper joint from the lower joint, NOT with
> the barrel?
>
> I hope so. It seems from your post you are at some point doing
> middle of the clarinet tuning adjustments.
>
> (Mr. Ridenour's, who you mentioned, approach to tuning.)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYx3pj0L790
>
> "The reed part I'm wondering about is the idea that Ridenour
> has. To play Clarion C and G then to slur up to Altissimo E and
> then Upper Altissimo A. Is that a good indicator in telling
> that it's a balanced reed?"
>
> By Mr. Ridenour's own word, as he talks about how to test
> balance in a reed using his ATG reed balancing system, I'll say
> no.
>
> His test for balance comes in turning the mouthpiece,
> temporarily of course, to one side, and blowing the reed,
> noting resistance, and then do that again for the other side.
>
> The harder to play side is the one that may need to be thinned
> down.
>
> Mr. Yeo, what if anything are you doing in the way of reed
> adjustment to make the very issues you report with this "C, G,
> E, A" test more manageable?
>
> If your answer is "nothing," I am of the belief that your
> single best cure to succeeding with this "C, G, E, A" test is
> to learn reed adjustment.
>
> Secondly, are you breaking in reeds, playing them only a little
> bit at first, and working their play time up over the course of
> a couple of days? That would be another good thing to try.
>
> Perhaps you are working with reeds right at the margin of
> acceptable play, such that problems on your "A" clarinet, don't
> manifest on your "Bb."
>
> How are you incorporating your two mouthpieces into this
> testing? The CL6 has...as a result of Vandoren just publishing
> these metrics, a 1.135mm tip opening, while you haven't
> stipulated with of the three D'Addario Reserves you are using.
>
> The X0's got a 1 mm opening, the X5 a 1.05mm opening, and the
> X10 a 1.12 opening.
>
> Clearly, tip opening isn't everything, but its a staring point
> for comparison.
>
> And by the way these metrics,
>
> http://www.woodwinds.daddario.com/reserve_mouthpiece_index.page?sid=d4b863ef-5dc5-4702-a201-ea227e2db567#blade3
>
> you see when you mouse over each mouthpiece may be for the Rico
> Reserve line of reeds, not D'Addario Reserve: its 2 new reed
> products being differently designed.
>
> Maybe our Dave Blumberg can advise on whether this webpage's
> been updated for the D'Addario reed product offerings, or if
> the Rico Reserve and 2 new D'Addario reed products compare in
> strength with the same numbers.
>
> "Is 2mm too much to pull out from the middle?"
>
> IMHO I wouldn't go much further, opting instead to acquire a
> shorter barrel. Other posters may disagree.
>
> "No matter how much I try sometimes I can't get a reed to play
> Upper Altissimo A"
>
> Try different strength reeds around what you're using. Learn
> reed adjustment. Break in reeds slowly. See if you can take
> in more of the mouthpiece without affecting other notes. Snug
> that mouthpiece with not only your jaw, but your side cheek
> muscles.
>
> "How do I know if a clarinet reed has a warped table?"
>
> Put it up against a piece of glass. Examine it on the glass
> for places where the underside of the reed doesn't contact the
> glass, if any.
>
> "The CL6 chart says the 3 1/2 V12 is the maximum strength it
> can use, but I use a D'Addario Reserve Classic 4+ is that
> causing some problems?"
>
> First, I'd need a conversion chart, ideally a direct one from
> V12 to D'Addario Reserve Classic. Do they compare with the
> same numbers on strength?
>
> Next, I'd take that chart with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't
> deviate far from the manufacturer's recommendations, despite, I
> believe, players like Morales playing relative open mouthpieces
> with, I think, synthetic 4's.
>
> (Point being, do what works for you, more than practice
> religious adherence to charts that are useful as a starting
> point.)
>
> Hopefully more people will have ideas here, and we'll all have
> better advice when you answer some of the questions I've posed.
>
> Good luck.
Yeah sorry I meant Chalumeau C-G slurring up to Clarion E-A.
I also, for tuning, tune middle G and upper G, so yes the three fingers for upper G. So when I tune open G I pull from the barrel and then I pull from the middle joint when I play the clarion G. Also, I use a Fobes 66mm barrel and if I use a 65mm barrel the middle G becomes harder to tune or I still have to pull out 2mm and the and the middle G I have to pull the barrel about 2mm also. So I don't think a shorter barrel would fix the problem. It seems like that my middle joint doesn't likes to be in tune.
Also, I use the ATG System to adjust reeds. If I can't play the A I sand the ears of the reed. I also use the side to side test and if the left side if harder, doesn't have the same dim, etc. I sand the left side and vice versa for the other side. I adjust in reeds on the forth day. The first three days I usually just play them for 2 minutes then put them away.
I am not using a Reserve mouthpiece actually I didn't really like them. I'm using the D'Addario Reserve Classic reeds that's what I meant, sorry.
For the reed table warpage isn't it normal to have a little warpage? So a little rocking is ok? Or should it be completely sealed on the glass with no rocking at all.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-12-29 17:43
Dave -
You need to learn to voice the various registers. For example, you get from altissimo E6 to A6 not by biting or changing the fingering (putting down the low F# key for A6), but by voicing it properly.
Use the swab-up-the-bell exercise. Stuff a cloth swab up the bell, finger B4 ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif) and blow like the wind. You'll get a weak Eb5 ![[Eb5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/eb5.gif) . Drop your jaw and blow harder and harder until the note is strong. Then adjust the back of your tongue and soft palate until you get the next partial, a fifth above, with NO jaw pressure. Then go to the next notes, up a fourth, major third, minor third and so on. Practice bugle calls.
Then learn to do the same voicing change between chalumeau and clarion, clarion and altissimo, and altissimo and higher notes. For more, see Charles Neidich's material at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=757&t=757.
Ken Shaw
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-29 18:23
On my Lyrique Libertas and with an M13 MP and a Legere Classic or Quebec cut reed, I can perform the slurs as Tom Ridenour suggests with no change in embouchure, or voicing. The super A is not totally pretty, but comes out just fine. Normally I would make some microscopic adjustment to get the A to sound better.
I don't think any clarinet can work perfectly with your body mechanics in a fixed setting. The R13 should pass this leaps in 12ths test as well, although IMHO the tuning is not as good as some other clarinets. But ... you know the old saying "guns don't kill, people do" ... Well ... "clarinets don't play in tune, clarinetists do"
The day to day variations may be your reeds changing or you changing. Even lowly brass players have good and bad days on high notes, so their body mechanics vary depending on many factors.
If you haven't, try the Legere reeds and see if this improves your consistency. You will have to do some experimenting to find optimum strength and cut for your MP. I do notice that the Legere seem to change a bit daily, but I suspect this may be ambient temperature or what I had for breakfast.
Some people think that the Legere reeds play a bit flatter in the high register, could be an advantage on some instruments.
One thing I have noted ... the amount of reeds vamp soak time and how much of the vamp is soaked effects tuning ... sometimes a lot. For example, my experience with Rico Orange box must moisturized for the length of the vamp or the tuning is screwy. That kind of shocked me when I discovered it. So be sure you are wetting your reeds in a consistent manner.
My 3 cents ...
Tom
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-29 19:54
With your response in hand Mr Yeo, let me answer and ask some more.
* If you can gain resonable intonation across all registers with your 2mm pull, finding that barrel shortening creates more problems that it solves, I say, consider yourself okay. As another poster recently said in a similar thread, clarinet tuning is always a compromise, even after people have spent time and money with things like undercutting and/or taping tone holes.
"For the reed table warpage isn't it normal to have a little warpage? So a little rocking is ok? Or should it be completely sealed on the glass with no rocking at all."
* I need sir to separate what may be normal, or at least "not out of the ordinary," from what is acceptable. Do [non-synthetic] reed tables warp? Equally important are some mouthpiece tables less than perfectly flat? Yes to both.
But I am of the believe that if your reed doesn't seal on to the glass I described previously, then it may be worth your time to sand or scrape the base of the reed until it is flat, disgarding it if it both plays lousy and can't be flattened.
"If I can't play the A I sand the ears of the reed."
* Does this help? And are you finding some of the reeds in a box too soft?
Because if soft reeds aren't your problem, it seems going up in strength may not solve more problems than it creates. High notes might be better but you also might have to clamp down to get lower notes to not sound breathy.
(My biases: I'm with the "Mark Nuccio school of reed strength": aim for the weakest strength that doesn't compromise your artistry.)
* How did you come upon the CL6 mouthpiece? Don't get me wrong, I think it and the rest of the Vandoren Masters series is excellent. But on the continum of mouthpiece tip openings it's certainly larger the the M13[Lrye] or M15.
With the caveat that tip opening is not everything, some wiser than me suggest that larger tip openings offer more control/flexiblity, while concurrently giving some players too much freedom, i.e. enough "rope to hang themselves with."
* I like Ken's techniques to familiarize yourself with voicing, while I subscribe to Tom's notion of general (not perfect) embouchure stability across registers.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-29 20:48
I have in large part, over the last two years, more loosely coupled my poorly conditioned brain, making fewer and smaller embouchure and voicing adjustments as I play. I've tried to refine my default settings to ones that facilitate the entire range of the instrument, as much as possible without biting and constant tweaks. This has been much easier for me since I've started using Tom Rideonour's clarinets. But I still think embouchure/voicing changes are necessary to tune chords, changes in timbre (jazz, for example) vibrato and various special effects.
I recently viewed videos of Joe Allard ... he made adjustments as he played and believed in developing a lot of flexibility ... very interesting. Another approach.
Tom
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2014-12-31 01:31
Whoa ok a lot to respond
@Ken
I know this response wasn't for me, but thanks for the informative information.
@TomS
I agree the R13 isn't very good and overall I'm not really happy with it. I'm hoping one day in the near future I'll be able to get a Vintage. I have a Vintage A clarinet and I LOVE IT!
I have tried the Legere reeds and haven't had any success with them. I've tried strengths ranging from 3.5 to 4.5 and non of them really worked or sounded good on my set-up. Note: I bought two of each strength.
I did find out that soaking the whole reed did mess up the table of the reed, so now I'm just quickly putting the reed in the water for 3 seconds. I'll see if that can make my reed adjustment easier.
Also, thanks for all the other information on your second post I'll check them out.
@WhitePlainsDave
Thanks for the response. I've decided that my clarinet reeds are pretty warped so I have changed up the way I soak my reeds. Also, thanks now I understand that I should probably not sand it until it's flat.
I have been thinking about what you said about the lowest strength reeds and using those, so I've ordered a box of 4's that may fix the problem. Also, the adjusting of the ears does work and doesn't work at times. Though I looked back at my reeds and I was pointed out that the ears were balanced, but not below that (a little below the ear. Which I mean right above the left and right heart of the reed) It's hard to explain, so I hope you'll understand what I mean. Yet, when I do get those in balance the A still doesn't speak well. Even when I know as a fact the reed is balanced and not too soft.
I came across the CL6 when I visited my local music store he handed me a CL6. I tried it out and I loved it. I thought it sounded better than the M13, M15, etc.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-31 22:30
Mr. Yeo:
When you say that your [wood] reeds are pretty warped...just so that we are on the "same page," does that mean that the reed's "flat surface" fails to be flat, and/or are you referring to the waves that can form at the tip, when introduced to water?
That latter, as you may know, is a function of uneven absorbtion of water by the tip that usually corrects itself quickly as the areas of the tip that didn't absorb water as quickly catch up.
Assuming you refer to the former, I ask, if you are, why expose the reed to any water beyond its top half--perhaps the slight exception being the ability for the reed to adhere to the mouthpiece while the ligature is applied, given the positive attributes here of water's surface tension?
From a scientific standpoint, water is a necessary evil for wood reeds. It's application to the reed allows it to soften and become more pliable, given the reed's cellulose fiber's greater affinity for the water's hydrogen than its own chemical chain. This hydrogen affinity allows the cellulose fibers to untangle, producing less strength per unit of area, and vibrate.
http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/wood/water_effect.php
Keeping the reed's base strong aids in the reed's vibration further up. Others may disagree, but I don't see the need to get the reed's base much wet: something that might facilitate the reed's flat table to be "not so flat."
Ultimately, this water, (not to mention the wear and tear of its vibration, and the the digestive affects of our saliva) are as necessary as they ultimately break down the reed.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2015-01-01 09:11
Mr Yeo, may I ask if you study with a teacher?
I applaud your commitment to experiment and allocate the time and resources to reeds, but most of the tunning and voicing concerns are not that reed-depended. A reed is important, no doubt, but it is just a reed and part of the skill that you build over the years is the ability to play freely, even on less than perfect reeds.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-01-02 06:42
ErezK wrote:
> Mr Yeo, may I ask if you study with a teacher?
> I applaud your commitment to experiment and allocate the time
> and resources to reeds, but most of the tunning and voicing
> concerns are not that reed-depended. A reed is important, no
> doubt, but it is just a reed and part of the skill that you
> build over the years is the ability to play freely, even on
> less than perfect reeds.
Yeah I do agree now I have to learn how to deal with it. I also think that right now trying to balance my reed until I can play that high A maybe a little too much; though one of the concertos I've learned does require it. Though I can't play that high A all the other notes below it sound just fine and me constantly trying to adjust it is messing up reeds that are good enough.
@WhitePlainsDave
Yeah sorry I meant the table. I have decided NOT to wet the table of the reed now that you've told me that. Now I've been just wetting the vamp of the reed. To be honest my reeds sound just fine even though the C-G-E-A test tells me otherwise. I hear no air coming out of my reed, it still has a round tone, a full tone, and it still sounds like how I want it to sound. So I've decided to ditch the C-G-E-A test until perhaps later in life when most of my repertoire demands it.
I've also concluded the clarinet I've chosen as my Bb doesn't work well with my mouthpiece. I have used an M30 with the Bb I have and it works well with it. I've also tried the CL6 13 series and the upper G is in tune without having to pull out 2MM, but the thing is that middle G is EXTREMELY flat. I've also had someone use another mouthpiece by Fobes the Cicero and that worked well with the clarinet I had. The mouthpiece is tuned to 442, so I think that's affecting immensely. I've tried barrels from 64-67 and all those barrels still required me to pull 2MM with my Vandoren CL6.
Post Edited (2015-01-02 06:47)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-01-02 07:02
I don't think you can rely entirely on the reed, mouthpiece etc. to make things in tune. Obviously if there are huge discrepancies in tuning across all registers then it would be appropriate to try different equipment, but the fact that it's only the high notes that are sharp suggests that maybe you're just biting too much to pop out the high notes (a problem I had for a long time) or just voicing too high.
Post Edited (2015-01-02 07:37)
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-01-02 10:57
maxopf wrote:
> I don't think you can rely entirely on the reed, mouthpiece
> etc. to make things in tune. Obviously if there are huge
> discrepancies in tuning across all registers then it would be
> appropriate to try different equipment, but the fact that it's
> only the high notes that are sharp suggests that maybe you're
> just biting too much to pop out the high notes (a problem I had
> for a long time) or just voicing too high.
>
>
> Post Edited (2015-01-02 07:37)
That's true, however I don't bite my set up. Yes I do a little, but like what Peter Hadcock says a little jaw pressure is required. If I do want to bring down the pitch I have to do some serious jaw dropping. An amount that most would consider, "too much." It could be a voicing issue, but considering the fact that other people have played my set up with my mouthpiece and they too had a problem I don't think that's it. I still think it's my mouthpiece and clarinet combination problem. I have had 3 other mouthpieces used with my clarinet and they stay perfectly in tune, except my CL6. I use my CL6 with my A clarinet and that stays perfectly in tune. So my options are abandon my CL6 (which I love and I think gives me the best tone quality) or get a new Bb clarinet. I am planning on getting a new Bb clarinet, so I am going to stay with the mouthpiece. I'm not getting a new clarinet because of the mouthpiece combination.
When I first chose my Bb I didn't really know how to properly choose a clarinet so I basically chose a bad one, not terrible, but not that great either. Also, I know you can't entirely rely on your reed and mouthpiece (etc.) however I've been having to do an extreme amount of jaw dropping, but then that would completely throw off all of the lower notes that are in tune. I won't completely ignore what you said. I will keep a closer eye on my jaw, but from what I've remembered and seen on the tuner; I have to pull amount 1/2 of a MM from the barrel and 2MM from the middle joint. So if what I'm thinking is correct that it's not my jaw then it's my voicing, and that could most likely be culpable to being out of tune in the upper register.
It could also be my clarinet and mouthpiece. Other people have used other mouthpieces and on top of that the CL6 has it tuned to H=442 and I tune to H=440, because that's what most youth orchestras tune to. Though I don't think it should be THAT big a deal, because most youth orchestras over the course of playing do go sharper. So right now I've been thinking maybe I should tune to H=441.
If it is a voicing issue (which could be adding to the problem) I should maybe just get an M30 until I am able to buy a new clarinet that works well with my CL6, but I don't really think it's necessary. If 2MM is a little below the, "It's ok just don't pull out any further" standard then I don't think buying a mouthpiece will be necessary. So I guess this is another question. If I've seen 3 other mouthpieces be perfectly in tune with my Bb clarinet should I just get an M30 13 Series? Or just pull out 2MM and save the money for reeds. I do think most of the problem is me now, however to fix by learning how to voice better could take years, so right now I need a fix that can be achieved quickly. Unless I'm wrong and voicing could be taught within a couple of weeks or month.
Post Edited (2015-01-02 12:03)
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