 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-05-19 01:22
I'm a returning clarinet player. It's been 33 years since I played my Bb Buffet R13 clarinet in the Army Band, and the old baby has a few leaks so I've scheduled a complete overhaul. I was a little hesitant about selecting a repair person, so my husband offered to have his LeBlanc overhauled first. That way I could check out his overhaul and also have an instrument to play while mine when "under the knife" so to speak.
The repair person I selected recommended cork pads (either on the upper or lower part, I forget). I had never played on cork pads but decided to follow his recommendation. We got the LeBlanc back last week and I am very happy with the quality of work; however, I can't tell if the cork pads altered the tone quality of the instrument, or if it just sounds different to me because I'm not used to the sound of a LeBlanc.
Does anyone have experience using cork pads on a Buffet clarinet, and if so, did it change the tone quality of your instrument (and do you like the cork pads)?
- Laurie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-19 01:29
I don't believe they change the sound of the instrument - they do make a sound in themselves being very firm if you're heavy handed and slap keys shut, but as to changing the sound or tone of a clarinet, I don't think there's anything in it. They will remain flat on their surface, so won't sag into toneholes as some other pads so.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-19 01:41
The main advantage of cork pads (generally in the upper joint where the pads are smaller) is that they potentially seal more reliably than bladder pads. Some players find that the sound of the instrument is a little "brighter" (dangerous word) because the cork tends to reflect more sound while bladder-on-felt may absorb some. The larger the pad, the harder it is to be sure of making it close flat against the tone hole, so I don't think cork is often (if ever) used in the large cups at the bottom of the clarinet.
That said, the wisdom about cork pads is 30 or 40 years old and there are a lot of newer synthetic materials that some players and techs feel seal as well as cork and provide acoustic benefits that cork doesn't. Obviously, it's hard to compare because once the clarinet is repadded with one material, you aren't likely to have them all ripped out to try a different one (unless you really hate the first result). If you think the tech is competent and reliable, I'd take his/her suggestion and see how things come out.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-19 02:17
The only way to test a clarinet for any differences between pad types is to have several sets of keys that fit the one instrument and have each set padded with different materials (cork, leather, skin and synthetic). Then record yourself playing the same piece at the same tempo and volume levels with the different sets of keys fitted and have a good listen to the playback to see what differences there may be between them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-19 03:06
In my experience, the only keys that are cork-padded are the ones that might get very wet, i.e., those on or adjacent to the underneath side of the clarinet.
In total, that probably represents less than one sq. inch. Will those cork pads change the sound? Hardly.
b>
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-05-19 03:14
Yes, cork pads sound different. Funny thing is, in the US professionals have usually preferred cork pads because of the "way they respond". In Great Britain leather pads are common because… "of the way they respond".
A good pad job is primary, pad type is secondary.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-05-19 05:02
Cork pads are great if the tech is careful to chose pads that are high quality without any cracks or tiny holes. It would be all the pads in the upper joint except the one pad that works the 1/1 fingering for the Bb-Eb because that should be the same type pad as the lower partner for that fingering, the first pad in the lower joint. That's what good repair tech always recommends. I've used cork pads just about my entire career on all my clarinets, they last almost forever when done properly and drying any when they get wet after playing.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-05-19 09:27
I've used cork pads on the top joint for years and find that they seal very well and don't wear out. Their getting wet should actually be beneficial. This is why you lay a bottle of wine on its side to let the wine age: the cork remains wet and therefore won't crumble when you pull it out of the botttle with a corkscrew. The cork pads tend to get harder with time and snap a little bit more, but they also reflect more sound, which isn't a bad thing. In my own immortal words, the ideal clarinet would have no holes in it! If the tone of the clarinet is too bright, maybe you want pads that dampen the sound. If the sound is dark or muffled, I would opt for harder pads that reflect the tone more.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-19 14:54
The surface of pads on top joint ~1%, and the difference in sound reflection btw different pad material 20-30% at most, so if there is any difference due to material it will not be easily detectable.
What does matter however, that cork pads (or new pads in general) seal better, so better sealing clarinet would sound very different from one with leaks. Also any rebuild would change feel and sound of instrument, for better (or worse).
And yes Leblanc (which one?) doesn't sound like R13.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-05-19 20:18
You won't run into this if you have a good tech do it, but to get a 'feel' of the workings of a clarinet adjustments, I re-padded a clarinet (cork top joint only) an apparently the economy cork was 'grainy' enough not to seal well for some keys.
I found that a cork register key lets me taper it slightly to help reduce the lower register subtone on some register jumps up.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-19 20:32
Cork pads aren't ready to use, so they have to be ground down to make a perfectly flat face on them. Use several grades of abrasive with each one getting finer to get a completely flat and smooth face. I use three different grades of pumice block which I flatten out by laying abrasive paper on a surface plate, then they're good to start grinding cork pads on.
I prefer cork pads over the other traditional types (ie. skin and leather) as cork pads can be made any diameter, shape or thickness as is required for the application and the face is completely flat for the entire diameter instead of having rounded edges.
Also I find them much easier to seat and regulate compared to softer pads, but cork pads are only good if the tonehole bedplaces they're seating against are also perfect, so take the time to go over all the toneholes and fill all imperfections no matter how minor and level them before seating cork pads onto them, otherwise you'll have leaks. Several small leaks will add up to one major leak, so everything has to be made perfect.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-19 20:46
Chris P wrote:
>
> I prefer cork pads over the other traditional types (ie. skin
> and leather) as cork pads can be made any diameter, shape or
> thickness as is required for the application and the face is
> completely flat for the entire diameter instead of having
> rounded edges.
>
> Also I find them much easier to seat and regulate compared to
> softer pads, but cork pads are only good if the tonehole
> bedplaces they're seating against are also perfect, so take the
> time to go over all the toneholes and fill all imperfections no
> matter how minor and level them before seating cork pads onto
> them, otherwise you'll have leaks.
>
it is probably in religious war domain, but give a try to kangaroo pads from instrument clinic. Personally tried them once and will not use anything else, period. Yes they have soft base and can twist on big pads, but they let you get over 30sec on vacuum test on beat up toneholes, YMMV
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Author: TAS
Date: 2014-05-20 07:06
Cork pads DO NOT change the tone. I am a professional symphony clarinetist and only have Bill Brannen (Evanston) Woodwinds repair my circa 1963 R13 (one owner...me) and my circa 1970 Buffet A. He is the master craftsman and uses fine cork pads on the upper joint tone holes prone to moisture.
Anyone that tells you cork pads negatively effect the tone - or the feel, which I actually prefer on these several upper joint areas- has a screw loose.
TAS
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-20 08:00
I am offering $1 billion dollars to the first person who can hear a difference.
Make that $2 billion!
bruno/
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-05-20 10:00
>> except the one pad that works the 1/1 fingering for the Bb-Eb because that should be the same type pad as the lower partner for that fingering <<
It really doesn't have to be the same type of pad.
>> That's what good repair tech always recommends. <<
No, good repairers recommend many different things.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-05-21 00:43
TAS wrote:
> Anyone that tells you cork pads negatively effect the tone - or
> the feel, which I actually prefer on these several upper joint
> areas- has a screw loose.
>
I don't want to put too fine a point on this, but I don't know how to read this - "or the feel, which I actually prefer..."
Do you prefer the feel of cork in the upper joint? And if so, where does that leave you among those with screws loose?
Does cork affect the feel or not?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-21 00:54
As clarinets have more closed standing keys than open standing keys that are likely to have cork pads in them, then the 'feel' is only with the ring keys and how they're set and the spring tension set up by the repairer.
As for pad noise, cork pads on open standing keys (ie. the ring keys) is increased on certain notes but doesn't carry far. The finger speed and pressure the player exerts will exacerbate the amount of key noise if they hammer their fingers down firmly which they shouldn't need to do as a properly seated cork pad will close with light finger pressure.
If anything, the feel should be improved wit cork pads installed as they have a more positive feel and hardly any give in them - they're either open or closed whereas badly seated pads of other types that are much softer will only fully seat with increased finger pressure which is no good for technique.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-05-21 01:41
Oboists have been using cork pads for as long as I can remember, which goes back a long way. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The oboe sounds more like a goose than the clarinet.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-21 02:25
I personally prefer to cork pad oboes and cors anglais throughout but will use leather pads in the largest pad cups if requested. Again I prefer the solidity of the fell the cork pads give under the fingers and find them easier to regulate. Not so easy is fitting perforated cork pads in perforated fingerplates with chimneys in them as they're glued firmly into the pad cups (as opposed to being floated) then have to be ground down until they seal all the way round (but still being slightly lighter at the backs than the fronts).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-05-22 12:50
The sound and especially the response, after a good repadding job, is not because of the type of pad used, but rather the workmanship in the installation and adjustment, i.e how leak-free the clarinet is under light finger pressure.
Very few technicians will use cork for the larger pads on clarinet or oboe. That is because cork is unreliably leak-free (under light finger pressure) for larger pads. Likewise, in my experience, for synthetic pads for normally-open keys.
Post Edited (2014-05-22 12:50)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-22 17:47
"Very few technicians will use cork for the larger pads on clarinet or oboe. That is because cork is unreliably leak-free (under light finger pressure) for larger pads. Likewise, in my experience, for synthetic pads for normally-open keys."
I've never found that - I sometimes cork pad clarinets right down to the Ab/Eb key if the pad cup isn't any larger than 15.5mm inside diameter. I've even cork padded an Uebel basset horn including all the fingerplates right down to the Ab/Eb pad cup and that was all sealing very well, but the instrument wasn't great to begin with. I find larger cork pads much easier to seat compared to 6mm (or less) ones.
I also cork pad soprano saxes from the top 8ve key down to the open C# vent (so the palm keys and high E and F# are cork padded) and install cork pads in sax 8ve keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-05-22 18:10
depends significantly on the listener. A spectrum analyzer could show differences.
richard smith
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-05-22 20:17
rtmyth wrote:
> depends significantly on the listener. A spectrum analyzer
> could show differences.
>
I doubt it. Ears are far more sensitive than electronics.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-05-27 03:57
Hi Chris.
The Ab/Eb doesn't matter much because it is sprung closed. And one might get away with the F#/C# for the same reason.
My comments were directed at F/C & E/B on soprano, and rather more keys on instruments with even larger tone holes, eg you would not consider cork for flute stack keys!
Another reason why cork is less suitable for these two low keys is that it is less forgiving. Because of metal flex and slight play in the E/B upper pivot, pads need to be a bit more forgiving, otherwise the linkage will be unreliable when playing left hand E/B.
Post Edited (2014-05-28 16:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-05-27 14:59
I see - I wouldn't cork pad these large pad cups on clarinets as they'd be too noisy. I use leather pads for these as they're hard wearing as opposed to skin pads that can be torn easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-05-28 17:00
I find that high quality skin pads last for many years without tearing. And after many years leather can be rather hard and nasty. So to me there is not a lot between them.
But skin pads on recent Buffets... You're lucky if they don't start splitting within 18 months! Some decades ago, they were fantastic!
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