 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 42cheese
Date: 2013-11-07 05:28
I recently got my hands on a fantastic-condition R series Selmer CT with a 19/7 key system. I've tried full Boehms before and I find the low Eb virtually useless and very detrimental to the low notes' tuning, but I can't see anything but drastic improvement where the other enhancements are concerned.
Besides the extra adjusting, is there any reason NOT to have an enhanced key system? So far, I have been able to play everything I play on my standard system clarinets, much of it faster and way more accurately, and I can play a whole bunch of things that are impossible on the standard system, but I can't find something that I'm unable to play.
Also, now that I seem to have found the right Bb, I'm looking into altos and basses. Is there such a thing as a 19/7 alto or bass, or any system with additional keys (besides the low Eb, of course)? I imagine this would be especially useful for fluency on larger horns.
Thanks,
Sean
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-11-07 09:46
Sean: I think the purpose of the full Boehm was quite simply to make it possible to play "A" parts on the B-flat clarinet. When I was a student in Italy, we were forced to transpose A parts and play them on the B-flat clarinet. Another extra key that has come into recent existence is a thumb-operated key that brings up your low E and F, which are usually too flat. We have this on our JL-Arioso clarinets.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-07 09:59
As bass clarinets don't have ring keys, you can't get Eb or Bb with the forked fingering (xox|ooo) but Yamaha alto clarinets (and possibly the more recent Amati) have the LH3 fingerplate linked to the E vent on the top joint, so you can get a forked Eb/Bb but you will have to open the C#/G# key to compensate for LH 3 being closed. True forked Eb/Bb mechanisms have a small vent key in between the LH 2 and 3 toneholes which opens and closes along with LH2, so when LH2 is raised while LH3 is held down, a well tuned Eb and Bb are obtained (unlike long Bb which is sharp as an Eb when played with the xoo|xoo fingering). Only the Yamaha alto clarinet doesn't have a LH Ab/Eb lever - I fitted one to mine as I use it a lot.
The additional gadgets you have on a 19/7 clarinet are:
Forked Eb/Bb - an extra ring for LH3 so Eb/Bb can be played as xox|ooo which is very useful when playing in remote key signatures and arpeggios where the side or cross key fingerings for Eb/Bb can be awkward.
Articulated C#/G# - by holding the C#/G# key down and trilling with RH2, you can get a true B-C# or F#-G# trill, as well as a much smoother transition from eg. Ab-Db by lifting off the RH fingers. The extra C#/G# trill key for LH2 is useful for C-Db, G-Ab and high E-F trills.
LH Ab/Eb - should be standard equipment on all Boehm system clarinets in my opinion. This means all the RH touches (Ab/Eb, F/C, F#/C# and E/B) are duplicated. It's especially important on instruments fitted with a low Eb so an easy low Eb-Ab slur can be done.
Most modern basses have articulated C#/G# and the LH Ab/Eb lever, but fitting a forked Eb/Bb mechanism to basses will be tricky due to the position of the LH3 fingerplate which holds down the LH2 fingerplate. It can be fitted to altos as can an articulated C#/G# mechanism.
As for full Boehm CTs - I've got a fantastic 1958 R series full Boehm CT and the extra length of the lower joint in my opinion adds more resonance to the lower notes and I use it as a mid stave Bb as well. But like the majority of clarinets, the low F and E is on the flat side (but upper B and C are smack on).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-07 13:02
McLane, Bonade, Marcellus, Gigliotti, Drucker -- all played the standard instrument. Once you get used to sliding from one key to another, you can get around the "you can't get there from here" situations. Bassoonists slide as a matter of course. Pianists constantly change hand position. Violinists do it with only four fingers.
I'll take the left little finger key for G#/Eb. The articulated C#/G# is convenient but eliminates the "long" altissimo F and F#. The left ring finger ring creates a very difficult adjustment problem.
You can add keys without end. The Mazzeo Personal Model http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Clarinets/Mazzeo/5833/Mazzeo5833.html had so many extra keys and mechanisms that it became too heavy to play. That way lies madness.
Anton Stadler played the Mozart Concerto on a system that had only 5 keys (plus 4 more for the basset notes). You're cross-fingering all the time, yet there are recordings that are very smooth and lyrical http://www.amazon.com/Last-Concertos-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart/dp/B000XQHQWQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1243293026&sr=8-1.
You do it with what you've got. It takes nothing but practice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: 42cheese
Date: 2013-11-07 14:46
Ken: Are there any other drawbacks? Personally I don't mind the extra adjusting, but it does concern me that I've lost that altissimo fingering. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the third LH ring "makes some trills impossible" or something like that, but I haven't encountered this.
I guess my main reason for choosing the enhancements over standard is that I rarely play Mozart concertos--I play jazz, and having the "extra" fluency available in the midst of improvisation is a lot more helpful than it would be if I only played set melodies that my fingers have perfectly memorized. That's not to say that I don't have to practice as much. It's the opposite: I now have many more fingering patterns that need practicing. As for weight, I can't detect any difference between my standard BT and the enhanced CT, and it will soon be a moot point because I'm going to have my local tech put rings on the thumbrests of all my clarinets so I can carry the weight with a good sturdy sax neckstrap. I don't see any point in destroying my thumb any further, no matter what the instrument's weight is.
Chris: As a fellow CT player, perhaps your judgment as to altos and basses may help me find a suitable horn. Which Yamaha(s) are you referring to? And am I to take it that altos don't have enhanced systems at all, or do they often have the LH Ab/Eb as you say that basses often do?
Thanks,
Sean
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-07 14:58
Attachment: selmerseries9clarinets 001.JPG (702k)
"The left ring finger ring creates a very difficult adjustment problem."
Could you please elaborate? I've never encountered any problems with regulating the forked Eb/Bb mechanism in conjunction with the long Bb - both fingerings work fine on all my clarinets originally fitted with it or with it added later on.
While Yamaha basses (600 series) have the LH Ab/Eb lever, their altos don't have it fitted at all, which is why I built and fitted one to my own alto.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2013-11-07 22:48
Chris -
I'm not a professional repairman, but I do make small adjustment on my own clarinets. On the standard clarinet, it's simple to bend the bridge key a tiny amount to balance the pad pressure between the pads above the right index finger and the left middle finger. (I do the same with the crow's foot in the right little finger keys.) Adding the extra ring and it's associated tiny vent hole means that there are two additional settings that may need to be adjusted, and finding the ideal one for all four is difficult, at least for me. The articulated C#/G# mechanism adds a fifth hole that must be balanced with the right hand pad.
I have a Buffet from the 1930s with the seventh ring and the articulated C#/G#, and every adjustment I make throws off the others. Part of the problem I guess is that I don't have an alcohol lamp or gas burner, and I don't feel comfortable melting the shellac and floating a pad to its correct position.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-11-07 23:03
The difficult switch from Bb5 to Eb 5 that is eased with the TR XOX|OOO fingering is worth maybe 7,000 hours of practice.
The case for throwing out the articulated G#/C# to preserve the "long F6" is specious because you can squeeze the throat G# key to pop TR XXX|XXX into the altissimo register just as effectively as using the left pinky C#/G#.
I agree 100% that it is bad design to leave off the left pinky Eb/Ab key so that sequencing and sliding is a significant part of clarinet playing and ONLY clarinet playing.
The clarinet's huge register jump requiring 5 semitones to be found somewhere (the pinky keys, the "woodpile") REQUIRES that the instrument have all notes on each side of the horn. Yeah, we all fight to learn to allow for that commonly missing key, and we bitch about it being placed in an awkward position, but basically it is just stupid to demand this additional 7,000 hours of unnecessary work.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-07 23:12
To adjust it so the long Bb works as well as the forked Bb, completely back off the adjusting screw connected to the LH2 ring and then adjust the bridge key so the small vent key pad closes with a little more pressure than the RH ring key pad. Then turn the adjusting screw so both the small vent key pad and the E vent pad (connected to LH3 ring) close with the same pressure.
Provided all the point screws are a good fit and there's absolutely minimal slop or lateral play in the mechanism, you shouldn't have any problems regulating the extras found on clarinets with these special mechanisms fitted to them. If there's excess play or dry solder joints that have failed, then you'll have no end of regulation problems.
I cork pad nearly everything on clarinets (apart from the largest pad cups) as I find they're much easier to seat and have the firmness which makes regulating them much easier (and are far more airtight once the toneholes have all been tidied up). As for them being noisier than other types of pads, then that's just something you'll have to put up with for the sake of long term reliability. Provided you don't slam your fingers down whilst playing, no-one else should be able to hear anything out of the ordinary.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2013-11-08 00:03
I've never encountered a clarinet with an articulated G#, would it be possible to have a mechanism that temporarily disables the articulated G#, like the lock on the whisper key of a bassoon.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-08 04:31
I'm sure some sort of clutch can be fitted, similar to what some Oehler system clarinets have to disengage the link between the LH (or the only) E/B lever and the patent C# mechanism or that seen on flutes with a switchable split E mechanism. It all depends on how much room there is.
While altissimo F and F# can be played on clarinets fitted with the articulated C#/G# using the short fingerings, top Bb can't be played with the full fingering that includes it - instead, you can get a very good altissimo Bb by playing upper register C but with the left thumb off the thumb bush but still on the speaker key. On clarinets without it fitted, you'd get altissimo Bb by playing upper register C and opening the C#/G# key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2013-11-08 04:52)
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Author: 42cheese
Date: 2013-11-08 04:49
So, to be completely sure I'm following you, there is no such thing as an alto with extra keys? And "most modern basses" have all but the fork Eb/Bb? What exactly qualifies as a modern bass? And are they any good? I have not yet encountered any recent model of any type of clarinet that I felt could remotely compare to a good vintage horn (that's just me, the jazzer, but that's how it is in my view).
I'd like something with both incredible power and great warmth, like my CT. 19/7s are great, but the horn comes first. Any suggestions? I'd prefer to start with the alto and gradually build my chops, but they're much less common, so I wouldn't mind jumping to bass if I can't find an alto that works for me.
Thanks,
Sean
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-11-08 21:36
Was it Benny Goodman who said "All you ever need is the standard 6 ring / 17 key Clarinet.
To see an instrument that is overloaded with mechanism , take a look at the full conservatoire Oboe. The one that I have is the combination (thumb plate) conservatoire system , and it's heavy !
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-11-08 23:16
"McLane, Bonade, Marcellus, Gigliotti, Drucker -- all played the standard instrument."
None of whom have I ever emulated. (Apologies, Ken--it was too good a 'set' for me to spike).
Artie Shaw and Pete Fountain both used enhanced models. But while both of those men have deeply influenced my playing, they aren't the reason I play enhanced model CTs (a Q Series and a P Series)--it's the flexibility of effects I can get (such as a tremolo from clarion G to Bb, etc) that enable a more natural playing of the blues.
Having said that, Benny remains in my estimation the finest of blues clarinetists, and he often used standard models, especially from the late 1940s on.
"It's what works for you": not only a cliché, but probably the closest we'll come to the truth of the matter.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: ned
Date: 2013-11-09 01:12
Eric wrote ''Having said that, Benny remains in my estimation the finest of blues clarinetists,...''
Hi Eric,
BG's a good player, but I wouldn't agree with you that he is the ''finest of blues clarinetists''. Have you heard Johnny Dodds, George Lewis, Barney Bigard, Omer Simeon and Sidney Bechet? That's just to name a handful.
cheers,
JK
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-11-09 02:25
ned,
Yep. I've heard all of 'em, admired them, and transcribed them. You could add Raymond Burke, Edmond Hall, Pee Wee Russell, Michael White, Irving Fazola, Willie Humphrey, and several others to your list as well--check them out if you haven't.
Still, for me, Benny's blues playing eclipses theirs. 'Vibraphone Blues', 'Blues in Your Flat', 'Blues in My Flat' and several others hit me in a place no others do. But that's me.
Artie's blues playing also surpasses theirs, for me---too many tunes to name. Then there's Pete...maybe third on my list. But everyone chooses their own favorites and influences.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: 42cheese
Date: 2013-11-09 06:08
Thank you, Eric! Exactly the way I feel: we each choose our own key systems for our different purposes.
Well Chris, since I would never spend $10,000 on a Buffet (especially a "Prestige"), I'll do what you did and have the extras installed at my choosing.
There are some very fine old Leblanc altos for sale on we-all-wish-we-didn't-know-what-site; would those make the cut for a big-bore player? Or maybe the Selmer 9 in close-to-mint condition? Maybe a cheaper old Noblet, since I'd just be a beginner on alto? Suggestions, anybody?
Thanks,
Sean
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-11-09 12:52
Sean,
There are other people posting here who know more about saxophones, so hopefully they'll chime in. My experience with the sax is very limited, and was only for a brief period, but the alto I picked up was an old H. Couf from the '60s--a Keilwerth stencil. It's a really nice horn, though I'm not sure on the bore specs, etc, and I got it for a very good price.
They're getting tougher to find, and pricier, but you might check one out if you have the chance.
Footnote:
Some of us have been trying to generate steam for a reference CT here for quite a while. On my blog, far and away the most popular post for equipment is the review of my 1955 Q series CT. I've also noticed prices climbing for CTs over the past couple of years. My guess, though, is that Selmer won't start making a reference CT until the old ones are selling for higher prices than their new models. That's sort of what happened with saxophones: Mark VIs were often selling for higher prices than new Selmers.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-09 13:51
I'd recommend a used Leblanc alto clarinet over a Noblet or Vito as the Leblanc has the better keywork and a rudimentary forked Eb/Bb mechanism in the LH3 fingerolate closes the E vent (Noblets and Vitos don't have this) so it works like a Yamaha alto. An extra vent key can be fitted in between LH 2 and 3 to get a true forked Eb/Bb on these, as well as a LH Ab/Eb lever and the C#/G# mechanism can be rejigged to make it articulated. I bought a couple of old Leblanc altos with the view to completely rebuilding them (the bells and crooks are in very bad shape) and ended up experimenting with the keywork by adding more adjusting screws here and there, but then the Yamaha alto turned up and they got put aside. I used one of the LH levers and the speaker key to make the LH Ab/Eb lever on my Yamaha alto.
Buffet Prestige basses don't have an articulated C#/G# key, but they do have half of the mechanism in place - all that's needed is a linkage fitted to the C#/G# pad cup to connect it to the bridge key and voila, a full articulated C#/G# mechanism. I had such a device fitted to my Prestige bass not long after I bought it, but you do have to be sure you don't bend anything during assembly, so lending this bass to anyone is out of the question as there are some heavy handed people out there - I've had the bridge key bent up on my full Boehms when I've lent them out so I've decided not to lend any of my equipment unless whoever borrows it knows exactly how to assemble it under my guidance first.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2013-11-09 14:13
Dear Marlborough,
Do you think it would be worth producing something like an improved Center-Tone Selmer Clarinet again? I work for an instrument maker. The only trouble is that this clarinet was associated more with jazz-Benny Goodman-and we cater more to Classical musicians. I value your opinion!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2013-11-09 14:25
Ruben--
Thanks for the question, and yes, I do think an enhanced/retro CT would be very valuable. Of course instrument makers need to consider market issues (I worked for Wurlitzer Clarinets America for a couple of years, so I understand these problems a bit from the inside).
Having said that, I believe there is a consistent, if limited, market for large bore clarinets in the jazz community. Over the years, I've spoken to, worked with, and even served as an advisor to some of the leading jazz players out there, and many of us are frustrated with the current options.
There is much more to say on the topic. If you're interested, please email me: I would be happy to go into greater depth and offer certain observations.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-11-09 15:28
Please bear in mind that large bore Selmers were the only Selmers being produced for several decades (until the Series 10 and 10G) and were used in all types of music, not just limited to being branded as Jazz specific instruments.
What they offered was the large bore and large toneholes which gave them plenty of volume if needed but also such ease in the altissimo register. As well as Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman famously playing on them, they were also the instruments of choice by the Boston Symphony Orchestra players such as Gino Cioffi and Rosario Mazzeo and many of their pupils and fans.
The only other large bore clarinets from French makers were the earlier Buffets and more recently the Leblanc Dynamic H and the Pete Fountain models - the latter having near on full Boehm keywork.
B&H 1010 and Peter Eaton Elite, as well as the large bore Rossi are based on the B&H 1010 which has perhaps the largest bore of 15.2mm for a Boehm system clarinet, but these have considerably small toneholes for their bore size and do need to be played using a 1010 bore mouthpiece instead of the standard French type. Some people get on well with them, but many others don't.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: 42cheese
Date: 2013-11-09 17:30
Thanks Chris, I'll check out those Leblancs.
Eric and Ruben: I fully support a resurrection of the large bore! The manufacturers need to understand that they are losing customers such as myself who simply can't work with small bores. I've never liked a single post-70s clarinet I've tried, and I'm sure this is partly why.
Of course, the hypothetical large-bore-resurrection market (and the whole orchestral instrument market) would soar if young players in school were introduced to more varied, popular, and (forgive me) interesting types of music than what is common practice today. Like small bores, traditional orchestral music doesn't work for everyone. I would have quit clarinet ages ago if my private teacher hadn't introduced me to jazz and world music. I have a few friends who did quit for similar reasons.
There are countless revolutions to be had in the musical world, and I intend to start some and participate in the rest!
Peace and music,
Sean
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