 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mcaswell
Date: 2013-03-05 17:54
When I first got my current clarinet, it played very sharp (which I later realized was due to the 65mm barrel it came with), and I had to pull out the barrel quite far. I then bought a M15 Series 13, which improved the situation (only had to pull out just a little bit).
Now, however, I've ordered a new clarinet, and it comes with a 66mm barrel. Assuming for a moment that the combination of a 66mm barrel and my M15/13 MP ends up making me a little flat on this new instrument, would it be better to replace the MP with a non-series 13 M15, or get a 65mm barrel and keep the current MP?
The cost would be about the same either way, so I'm mainly interested in what (if any) effects on intonation these two combinations would have.
It might end up not being an issue at all (since I have to pull out my current 65mm barrel a bit, maybe the 66mm on the new clarinet will be in tune with the M15/13). But still, I do fear finding myself in a situation where I need to tune up slightly, but can't because the barrel is already pushed in all the way.
--Michael
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2013-03-05 18:19
Changing between a Vandoren M30 and a Vandoren M30/13 forces me to push the barrel in about 1-1/2 millimeters (about 1/16 of an inch).
Bob Phillips
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Author: mcaswell
Date: 2013-03-05 20:13
Thanks, Bob. I guess a better way to phrase the question... would it be better (intonation-wise) to raise the pitch with a shorter barrel, or with a non-13 MP? Or is it basically a wash?
--Michael
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-05 21:10
mcaswell wrote:
> Thanks, Bob. I guess a better way to phrase the question...
> would it be better (intonation-wise) to raise the pitch with a
> shorter barrel, or with a non-13 MP? Or is it basically a
> wash?
>
> --Michael
It may be a wash in terms of pitch, but you might find there's more of a difference than just tuning pitch between Series 13 and Traditional Vandorens. Another approach might be to check on the return/trial policies of vendors you deal with and order both a barrel and a mouthpiece, then return whichever of the two you choose after trying both combinations.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-06 01:59
My vote is to go with a NON Series 13 Vandoren mouthpiece.
The two possibilities you outlined are NOT equal. The sharper mouthpiece will allow for more even internal tuning. But if you are stuck with a flatter tone generator, you will have problems the NO barrel will solve.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2013-03-06 06:58
I tend to do the opposite of what Paul recommends. I prefer the tonal colour of the series 13 so I use the shorter barrel.
If you are not fussed about the sound then both approaches are valid.
Chris.
Post Edited (2013-03-06 06:59)
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-03-06 08:02
I have also been contemplating what combination of barrel length and mouthpiece would be closest to optimum intonation wise, especially in regards to the vandoren line of mouthpieces and the differences between 13 series vs non 13 series.
So the lower pitch of the 13 series mouthpieces results entirely from different length of facing, tip opening, baffle dimensions etc, and not the total length of the mouthpiece itself?
On vandorens website they mention "specific facings" for the 13 series, but perhaps someone has a slightly more elaborate answer.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2013-03-06 11:49
I am not positive, but I believe the facings are the same, but the difference lies in other dimensions, perhaps internal.
I would consider the standard series as a good option, although not all of the M mouthpieces come in both versions. Often the M series are flat, especially in the throat. You can find discussions about that in the archives of the board.
I know that some people have a tech shorten the M13 on a lathe about 1mm and say that it helps.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2013-03-06 12:08
There has been a lot of past discussion on this, e.g.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=325006&t=322338
The impression I've gathered from such comments and other informed posts (from mouthpiece makers) is that what matters is the total volume at the top of the instrument. If this is too large, you are flat overall and especially so in the throat tones. But whether you deal with this by changing to a mouthpiece with a smaller internal volume or by using a shorter barrel makes no difference. Except of course a different mouthpiece will sound different for all sorts of reasons - so if you have a 13 series where you like the basic sound, go for a shorter barrel.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2013-03-06 12:49
Paul, I don't understand exactly what this means. If the overall length of mouthpiece + barrel is xx mm, why does it matter if that breaks down to 43% mouthpiece and 47% barrel or the other way around? Once you put the mouthpiece into the barrel, doesn't it become one system, which, when added to the clarinet body, becomes part of an even longer system?
What do you mean by "internal tuning" (or, by extension, what would "external tuning" be)?
(Not disputing, just confused).
Karl
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2013-03-06 18:22
If you think of the mouthpiece as a variable tone generator of negligable or constant length it will in theory affect the pitch of each tone proportionatly whereas altering the barrel length will affect the pitch of different tones disproportionatly as you don't alter the length of the clarinet uniformly. Blowing helium instead of air into the clarinet will alter the pitch of all tones uniformly. It might be hard to explain, then again, someone having a set up where the total length of mp and barrel breaks down to 43 % mp and 47 % barrel would raise concerns of greater magnitude.
Post Edited (2013-03-06 18:33)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-03-06 23:05
I don't know if this makes it easier or not, but just "crow" on the mouthpiece like an oboist would "crow" on a reed. You'll find the 13 Series (and many notable custom mouthpieces) plays almost a full half step LOWER than (dare I say) normal mouthpieces. The lowness is imparted by a larger tone chamber (here's another experiment if you like measuring things - try filling the mouthpieces up with water placing tape over the lay; you can put more water in the 13 type).
The lower generated sound imparts poorly tuned 12ths.
By 'internal tuning' I mean "note-to-note" such as your throat "F" is flat but the "G" just above it is sharp - and there's nothing you can do about it short of having someone mess with the size and undercutting of the toneholes.
External tuning would be, "I play flat"........ consistently; irrespective of the specific note. This would be a good scenario for a slightly shorter barrel.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: mcaswell
Date: 2013-03-07 23:08
Thanks for all the great advice. Taking Karl suggestion, I ordered a regular M15, and also temporarily got my hands on a 65mm Backun barrel of the same model as the one I would buy if I went that route.
So, I can try it both ways and see what works best for me... I should have thought of that!
--Michael
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