 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-11 06:18
Is there any difference between an Eb clarinet and a Bb clarinet besides the length of the instrument?
Why do people say that the Eb sound different timbre wise?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-11 06:31
The Eb bore is smaller, as are tone holes, the chamber of the mouthpiece etc etc. All these have an influence on timbre, starting with the internal volume of the mouthpiece.
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Ben
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Author: donald
Date: 2012-04-11 08:10
Interestingly, if you take a recording of a B flat clarinet and slow it down to half speed, it has a timbre like a bass clarinet. Likewise, if you take a 33rpm disk of a clarinet work, and play it at 45rpm it sounds like an E flat clarinet.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-11 08:38
Donald is very interesting and that is because of the relationship between notes in music.
I take it you know that the frequency of a note an octave up is twice that of the root note so the bass clarinet-soprano clarinet relationship is clear. If you slow down a clarinet it will play an octave lower.
Similarly, if you take music and you multiply the speed by something you get sound in a different key.
Let's look at the 45rpm compared to the 33 rpm. The ratio between the lower and the higher is 45/33 or 1.36364. The ratio between 5 half-steps in music is 2^(5/12) which is 1.33484. They are surprisingly similar but not exact, which is why there is a similarity. If you wanted to be precise, you would take a clarinet work at 33 rpm and you would play it at 44.04972 rpm to get a very close comparison. I calculated it by setting x/33 = 2^(5/12).
And tictactux, why does bore size and tone holes affect the timbre?
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-04-11 08:52
We are used to seeing sound depicted graphically as a sine wave. However hardly any instrument is capable of producing a mathmatically pure sine wave...If they did then we wouldn't be able to tell one instrument from another. All that different insruments achieve when they play the same note is to vibrate at the same frequency. Each instrument will impose it's own characteristic on the basic sine wave so that it looks more like an alpine sky line than a smooth curve. If an Eb clarinet and a Bb clarinet are dimensionally different it would be impossible for them to produce the same sine wave, even when playing the same note, hence a detectable difference to the ear.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-11 09:12
Can you explain more putz?
How does a change in dimension (I'm assuming length) affect the combination of different frequencies in which we perceive as timbre?
The distance for Concert D on the Bb clarinet would be the same distance as Concert D on Eb clarinet.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-11 09:43
> And tictactux, why does bore size and tone holes affect the timbre?
When you half-hole a note (or half-close the key) then not only the pitch will suffer but also the timbre - the note becomes muffled.
Arthur H. Benade has covered pretty much everything re instrument acoustics.
Another interesting read is http://www.navaching.com/shaku/synthesis.html, or some other pages that deal with woodwind DIY.
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Ben
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-04-11 10:11
Can you explain more putz?
How does a change in dimension (I'm assuming length) affect the combination of different frequencies in which we perceive as timbre?
The distance for Concert D on the Bb clarinet would be the same distance as Concert D on Eb clarinet.
Hi. Oca. I think that what you are describing is frequency based and I agree that these will be the same. All I am saying that in a sine wave analogy you can keep the frequency the same and the amplitude for that matter but in reality the smoothness of the sine curve is illustrating a perfect increase and decrease of pressure. This doesn't normally happen, there is the effects of turbulance and other random factors that vary with each instrument that distort the perfect sine wave and superimposes a profile on the sine wave that is detectable to the human ear. This is what makes a note on the piano recognisably different from the same note on a trombone even although the frequencies can match perfectly. Viewed like this the Eb and Bb clarinets are different animals. It may be that this difference is not described as Timbre, I couldn't argue with that as I am writing more as an ex, one time, accoustical engineer more concerned with soundproofing against jet engines and other nuisance noises than with music.
Post Edited (2012-04-11 10:18)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-04-11 10:40
Oca wrote:
> The distance for Concert D on the Bb clarinet would be the same
> distance as Concert D on Eb clarinet.
Before you get too far ... That statement is patently wrong, and oca'd know that if you actually took time to measure rather than theorize like a first-year physics student.
Oca, do your homework and come back with the formula for frequency for a cylinder closed at one end ... and then tell me why what you stated is wrong. It happens to be true in a particular theoretical case, but not in the situation you describe.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-04-11 13:03
Bonade, James Jeans, and Morse , in their books, explain it all. Morse is at the graduate level. Schaum Outline series has a good introductory text "Acoustics".
richard smith
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Author: Randall
Date: 2012-04-11 14:12
I took out my ruler and measured the tone hole distance to play concert C on a Bb, and Eb, both are 8.5 inches from the upper end of the barrel. That, however, isn't the bottom line regarding the tone difference, yet in the many recordings I've done, it is not always easy to tell which tube I'm playing.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-11 15:15
It's a bore Vs. stroke thing - even though the tube (or cylinder) lengths to produce the same note may be similar, the bore diameters are different as the Bb bore is around 14.6mm and the Eb bore is around 12-13mm, so the Eb bore has less volume than the Bb bore.
And compare that with an alto or bass clarinet bore producing the same frequency - the tone colour will be different as the bore to stroke ratio is different in all cases.
Don't ask me any more in-depth physics related questions as I failed physics (wanted to do chemistry but it clashed with another subject).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-04-11 15:33
It's all in the mind anyway. Sound doesn't exist in the universe or on this earth. Pressure waves are silent. The only place where sound exists is between the ear drum and the brain...no ear drum (and brain to interprett it), no sound, anywhere. Hence that old conundrum "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no-one there to hear it, does it make a noise?.
Sorry, useless information.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-04-11 16:32
Chris P wrote:
> It's a bore Vs. stroke thing
First time I've seen that phrase used in a discussion that wasn't about engines.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2012-04-11 16:35
SteveG_CT wrote:
> Chris P wrote:
>
> > It's a bore Vs. stroke thing
>
> First time I've seen that phrase used in a discussion that
> wasn't about engines.
A clarinet *is* an engine. Powered by GAS. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-11 23:28
"Before you get too far ... That statement is patently wrong, and oca'd know that if you actually took time to measure rather than theorize like a first-year physics student.
Oca, do your homework and come back with the formula for frequency for a cylinder closed at one end ... and then tell me why what you stated is wrong. It happens to be true in a particular theoretical case, but not in the situation you describe."-Mark
4L=Wavelength. Why is this? Well the reed produces pulses of pressure waves. Because equilibrium exists only on one side of the pipe, the compression pulse travels down the pipe one time, reaching the equilibrium at the bell, returns up the pipe a second time as a rarefaction, then comes back down again a third time as a rarefaction as the wave did not reach equilibrium pressure, then the wave comes up a fourth time as a compression as it was reflected from equilibrium, turning it from rarefaction to compression.
Since a Concert D is the same wavelength for Bb clarinet and Eb clarinet or any other instrument for that matter, I assumed that the lengths were equal as well.
I got you the formula; I explained it to you; I don't think I am wrong. If you want to correct me, correct me; don't tell me I am wrong because I am wrong. I would be very eager to learn something.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2012-04-12 01:00
Why does my 75 horsepower Fiat X1/9 sound different than my neighbor's 300+ horsepower Camaro? Heck, they're both cars.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2012-04-12 03:21
Why do people of the same height have different timbered voices? Why doesn't a Bb beginner horn sound the same as a professional?
If you seriously can't hear the difference in timbre then suddenly your question of 'why do people use different keyed instruments' makes sense.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-12 03:29
I still do not know why they sound different...
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2012-04-12 03:47
The overtone series of every instrument is different. That's why everything sounds different. You could try reading the books people have recommended here. Or maybe finish high school physics. You post these questions on the board almost as if you're trolling for responses.
Do you know why a flute sounds different than a piano? It's the same concept, just more subtle. It's that simple of a concept and you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.
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Author: oca
Date: 2012-04-12 05:40
Can you answer the question please? Sure, maybe this question was trivial. Sorry. Answer the question at least instead of replying "duh, the answer is common sense"
"The range between tonal and noise like character.
The spectral envelope.
The time envelope in terms of rise, duration, and decay (ADSR—attack, decay, sustain, release).
The changes both of spectral envelope (formant-glide) and fundamental frequency (micro-intonation).
The prefix, an onset of a sound quite dissimilar to the ensuing lasting vibration."
This was from the wikipedia article. What I get from this is that the Eb and Bb clarinet have different properties. BUT WHY. WHY WHY WHY. Sorry if I was unclear when I said "Why do people say that the Eb sound different timbre wise?"
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2012-04-12 05:59
Well, oca... I don't know nearly enough to go into better detail than this, but here's my shot at it.
Remember that the sound coming from the Clarinet has everything to do with the way how the reed interacts with the mouthpiece, and then the barrel, and only after that do you consider the body lengths.
Note that the resistance, the surface area, the kinetic force in kPa are different from the Bb mouthpiece + reed to that of the Eb mouthpiece + reed. The frictional coefficient of the Bb and Eb are different too. This means that the resonance and the frequency will not be identical, despite efforts to bridge the two.
Reed oscillation is at the key of Clarinet operation. The reed at shorter length and smaller surface area will have different elasticity, even using the same material. This means that we have a case that the rate of airflow vs that of the mouth pressure would not be identical for Bb and Eb.
In fact, to the misery of Clarinetists, the stiffness of the reed material actually introduced the issue of impedance to the input of the instrument. The weaker the reed, the lower the impedance, and the less resonance the instrument becomes at higher frequency (with the force of the air and other goodies playing against the vibrating reed), while higher strength reeds, with higher impedance, will be more able to resonance better at higher frequencies. Imagine how that plays out with the smaller Eb as opposed to the larger Bb.
The art of chimney design of the mouthpiece, the cut of the reed, the physical material, the facing length... all of this are tied to the input of this acoustic engine. I think any mouthpiece designer, any reed maker, or even any ligature maker, are driven in part to this frustrating interplay of aerodynamics, frequency response and human psycho-acoustics.
You should ask the question on lift, resonance frequency, drag coefficient, energy consumption, airflow velocity to someone an aerodynamics engineer to be honest... for these are what's at play in determining the use of the smaller 'funnel' bore to somehow replicate the results of the larger bore Bb instruments on Eb.
As for the pipe and the attempt to match pressure node to a certain frequency, we have a case where different sets of calculations are required to reach acceptable levels of compromise for Bb and Eb. In fact, even for A and C, where we use the same kind of mouthpiece as we do Bb, require different sets of figures. All of this translates into having the Bb and Eb respond differently, even on a note-to-note basis, nevermind register to register.
Guess what? People are not bad at picking up frequency 'nuances', even for the same kind of instrument. Look at how much fuss Clarinetists give one another throughout the course of their lifetime on their playing or that of others... or that of tuning based on A=440Hz vs 442Hz. So, psycho-acoustically speaking, people will be able to identify different sets of wave pattern, for even the 'same' frequency of the note played, thus making a note of this, as you are right now, on how "that instrument doesn't sound quite the same as the other one"...
edit: I saw Buster's addition about the assumption of the perfect tube, and I have to add that clarinets are by no mean perfectly closed pipe at all, for there is a loss going to the mouthpiece + reed, nevermind the leakages from the toneholes. I've seen people fussing about with different bells, tuning vents and adjustment keys, just to fine-tune a given instrument better...
Post Edited (2012-04-12 06:24)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-12 06:05
oca,
I wish not to write much on this most recent Spanish Inquisition, but if you want a bit of help:
Yes, a wavelength- λ, of 4L (where L represents the length of the closed pipe) is indeed the wavelength for the fundamental resonating frequency of a "perfect" closed cylinder. Or, we can say the note sounding is that of a wave 4 times the length of the cylinder itself.
This, however, is not the formula for frequency, though you are on the right path. Sort of.
frequency=v/λ where v=the velocity of the traveling wave
-or-
frequency=v/4L where L= the length of a closed cylinder
as for some homework on this front:
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/u11l5d.cfm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/clocol.html
-This is all a theoretical world of perfect cylinders, completely closed at one end, with infinitely thin walls. The clarinet is neither a perfect cylinder, infinitely thin-walled, nor completely closed at one end for we would find no location to input energy into the system.
-In your prior post you spoke of the pressure wave traveling up and down the cylinder; though the stating is a bit askew you are hinting at the concept of standing waves.
Seek thee out a explanation of standing waves (super-position), how to calculate the possible harmonics of any said frequency (which you should know from the homework above), the interaction of the standing wave and its "ideal" harmonics with the actual resonant frequencies of the imperfect cylinder that is the clarinet and I think you'll begin to see where timbrel differences stem from.
Add cut-off frequencies, differing reed behavior between an Eb mouthpiece and Bb, the possible effects of the vocal tract ("upstream" of the closed end of the pipe) and the picture should be more complete.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/basics.html --should help some without going to the library.
-Jason
edited to fix links
Post Edited (2012-04-12 06:13)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-04-12 14:20
Little more detail for suggested books: For a first reading, try "Science and Music", by James Jeans. For more theory and application to problems try "Theory and Problems of Acoustics", by William Seto. Others are available, such as those by Raleigh and Morse.
richard smith
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-04-12 14:21
Little more detail for suggested books: For a first reading, try "Science and Music", by James Jeans. For more theory and application to problems try "Theory and Problems of Acoustics", by William Seto. Others are available, such as those by Raleigh and Morse.
richard smith
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-12 20:11
Mark,
Thanks for the link; don't know how I have never stumbled upon it in my time lurking on the BBoard.
One of the best short summaries of clarinet behavior, with clear graphs, that I've seen. (without delving into the world of non-linearity, both of air input and wave propagation, which are FAR beyond my already faded mathematical abilities. Unfortunately the hyperlink for the da Silva thesis only brings up a 404 error. That may help in determining why German mouthpieces tend to rise in pitch with dynamic increase and French mouthpieces tend to drop. *sigh* but I surely wouldn't understand it anyway.....)
oca,
We are not trying to say "It sounds different because it does", nor "Go do your homework, I'm not going to answer your question." But the answers to your questions are difficult to put solely into prose, and require some mathematical background to answer for the poster and reader. Writing about math is much like dancing about architecture. And I surely have my limitations- in knowing what I know, I know what I don't know. (and I have inadvertently misstated things on this BBoard if you do some digging I am sure- though I have not done the digging.)
--The frequency formula and links I posted deal with wave behavior of an imaginary perfect cylinder, with walls that do not affect wave propagation, that behaves in a purely linear manner with a completely steady-state input. This is unfortunately not the case of any real world, tangible, structure. (and I believe this is the theoretical situation that Mark wrote of earlier, though I should not speak for him.)
--For easy discussion, and "quick" calculations, we often speak of wave behavior in this "imaginary theoretical" world; a quick perusal of the link posted by Mark will bear out why. As can be seen, the real state of the situation is far more complex; and even that representation is not the complete state of matters.
You once posted a thread to the effect of "Is it possible to use Physics to determine how a clarinet will sound?" (or something close to that.) Yes and no. Take the link Mark posted, add in the very complex non-linear equations, turn all of the measurable "Newtonian" dimensions into variables, plug those variables into into very complex multi-variable Calculus/differential equations and you'll end up with pages and pages of results written in the language of math which then must be extrapolated subjectively (in part) into how the human ear perceives/interprets sound. (and I'm sure I've even left out factors in that process; the skill needed for this I surely do not possess.)
Thus, we must say at times "It sounds different because it does" here because to say anything else becomes an exercise in futility; if you want to dig for better answers you'll need to do much reading elsewhere, perhaps in the books suggest by prior posters.
-Jason
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-12 22:21
oca,
I thought of a few more things,
---Returning to our theoretical perfect cylinder, the diameter of the cylinder plays no role as it is always at atmospheric pressure. The velocity of the traveling wave- 'v' - remains constant in the freq=v/λ equation. Only the length of the cylinder changes the frequency/pitch sounded.
This is not the case in the real world, nor clarinet world. Diameter affects 'v', thus changing freq (as well as a varied λ for each fingered note.) No clarinet is a perfect cylinder, thus we have variable 'v'.
Moving on, we must recall the the resultant heard freq./sound is a composite of many harmonics generated by the standing wave. The variations that alter 'v' also affect the strength of upper harmonics. ...Or, the pure harmonics interact with the nodes of resonance of the imperfect clarinet bore and certain harmonics are strengthened more than others. This will affect the "color" or timbre of the resultant tone. (Though as Benade stated, the resultant tone generated is always harmonic; there are no a-harmonic overtones present in the sounding tone. Unfortunately, I do not have his book in front of me to cite this properly.)
The bore size and bore variances, speaking in terms of ratio, between a Bb and Eb are not equal. Or, an Eb is not a perfectly shrunken Bb. Thus the variations in timbre between a Bb and Eb can be found here in part. Differing harmonics between the two instruments are strengthened, thus affecting timbre.
---Further, what occurs above the "closed" end of the cylinder is of great importance. The action of our mouths etc... remains the same while the clarinet we place in it varies. (Though it is inaccurate to state that the action of our mouths remains exactly the same for each instrument, the relationship between our body dimension and instrument size is what I wish to illustrate.)
---Lastly, acoustic impedance, which is mentioned in many of the posted links (and alluded to by Franklin) is of paramount importance in calculating wave behavior, and governs many of the actions mentions above.
(This is the best I can muster right now. If anybody can clarify it, or correct anything I have misstated, please do so. I have my limitations; and frankly my head hurts right now from trying to explain this as clearly as possible.)
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-12 23:12)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-04-13 03:57
Mark,
Thanks for the links.
I see I have several Sundays of blurry-eyed weeding ahead of myself. Along with the need to "reacquaint" myself with fluid dynamics to be able to make sense of the work(s). (I did say it probably would be above my pay-grade in futile self-defense.)
Navier-Stokes and Boltzmann were way down the road from where I terminated my Physics and Calculus/differential equation work. alas...
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-04-13 03:58)
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The Clarinet Pages
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