 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-12-20 18:06
I started thinking about Bela Fleck and how he has had a jazz bassoon artist play with him, and how he does more progressive, unique things with a banjo.
I know of Martin Frost, but what other clarinetists out there are trying new techniques, incorporating themselves into non-conventional musics, and are generally moving or trying things other than what clarinetists have been traditionally known to do in the past (mainly classical, swing, dixie, klezmer)? I'm not really interested in that crazy "whale noise" quarter-tone music, but has anyone incorporated it with a loop machine? Or auto-tune? Or rock? Or something like that?
I'm just curious to see what else is out there.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2011-12-20 19:34
My professor at college plays in this ensemble....she's done all of the things you just described at one point or another.
http://www.alarmwillsound.com/
Check them out.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-12-20 19:38
I know of William E. Powell, but I don't know much about what he does. I can assume that it is way out of the realm of traditional classical:
http://www.williamepowell.com/index.html
Alexey G (Gorokholinsky I believe) has been doing clarinet and electronics stuff. He released an album called "Model for Assembling" which is a crazy blend of styles.
A preview video of what's on his albums:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM4Y0AdF-_Q
Squonk and Edmund Welles are bass clarinet ensembles that play rock-influenced music.
There are so many players that have dabbled into new music and alternate genres; I'm not the person to ask to create a comprehensive list of all of them. Hopefully as a board we can create an extensive list.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-20 20:54
I studied with Bill Powell. Lately, he primarily plays contemporary and experimental fare, sometimes with electronics, and also has spent a lot of time on Indian music. Once in a while he'll take on traditional classical fare.
To toot my own horn, I've spent the past few years delving into noise, metal, folk, klezmer-rock, Zappa, improv, game-based, and theatrical contexts, among others.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Pastor Rob
Date: 2011-12-20 21:32
Heard German clarinetist Andy Miles play some amazing tango here in Seoul a couple months ago.
Pastor Rob Oetman
Leblanc LL (today)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-20 22:36
Let me first say I've dedicated the last 5 years of my life to changing the way the saxophone sounds. I've given up, but here's what I've learned:
By using the term "progressive" clarinetist, I'm assuming you would like to change the sound of the instrument. The problem with the clarinet and all other woodwinds is that it is a tube that vents at many different locations. In order to change the sound of the instrument, you would have to muffle every single tone hole, and then run the original tone through a device to change said tone.
Things that do work: Delay (quite nicely, I'd start here), Reverb (But you really only need this when recording, every room has it's own reverb), Chorus, Doubling effects
Things that don't work: Distortion, Flange/Phaser, auto-tune, any other tone altering devices.
I stated above why it is impossible to change the tone of the instrument in a live setting, which is what you would be preparing for, unless you'd like to lip-sync to your performances. Trumpets and Guitars can change their tone, because they can mute their instruments completely so that it does not interfere with the new tone.
So to be progressive, you'd have to change the band around you. Which is pretty much how Bela Fleck works. The band uses an interesting instrument selection, and performs a traditional style of music (I'm pretty sure they're Blue Grass). But truthfully, we've gone miles away from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, whom are all but a distant memory in popular culture. Maybe you'd like to stay away from pop culture, but it's a difficult road to travel.
Truthfully, the market is so consumed by electonic instruments and samples, that it is very difficult to be progressive and play the clarinet. I'd say, that if you want to be progressive, maybe you want to do something nobody else can do. In this case, I'd say practice 16 hours a day, play the hardest music you can find (not whale sounds, but I enjoy caprices that go across all ranges and intervals). When you master really hard music, it's equally as entertaining as any music on the radio today, and your audience that are also clarinetists will appreciate you more.
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2011-12-20 22:48
Shankar Tucker plays Indian folk music and mixes them with jazz/electronic/pop/classical elements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od5gvwQRl-Y
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-21 01:06
Drew:
I'll beg to differ. Tone-altering devices can be effectively used with clarinet in my experience. My current rig uses distortion to great effect (a couple levels of distortion if desired, as the double octaver offers distortion as well). I also know a bassoonist who gets a ton of mileage out of an envelope filter pedal. Muffling tone holes isn't necessary when you've amplified the instrument to 100dB, or to anything much louder than the source signal (and when it's amplified, you don't need a very loud source sound). Miking the thing with good signal and mitigating feedback has been the biggest challenge. If I hadn't just stowed my electric setup, I'd post something on YouTube to demonstrate.
That said, the original post very explicitly did not limit the term "progressive" to the realm of tone quality.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-12-21 01:40
Michael Lowenstern does some really cool things with bass clarinet.
http://www.earspasm.com/
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-21 04:06
There are many that have been doing all of this for decades, it's not recent. Not only effects but just a lot of non-traditional music. Here are a couple of examples.
http://youtu.be/P_Fo7Tvw9Yg
http://youtu.be/3ONV9hDHDv4
>> I'm not really interested in that crazy "whale noise" quarter-tone music <<
What if it's very good "whale noise" qurater-tone music?
>> a loop machine? <<
I sometimes use a setup with two loopers.
I agree with Alex that you can use many of those effects that change the tone. In some situations you (and the audience) wouldn't really hear the "acoutic" tone because of the volume, so no problem. In some situations it's not a problem if you (and the audience) can hear the "acoustic" tone, so no problem again.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 11:05
EEbaum:
I'm sorry to say, but I'm pretty sure you'd have little to no success adding distortion to your instrument. Distortion works on the premise where you overdrive a source signal to the point of distorting the tone. If you do this in a live microphone setting, you get feedback, which as you know, will really destroy your performance. You may have success in a recorded setting, when you do not use a reference monitor, but this will never translate well in the real world.
Octave doublers are nice, but not completely effective. The reason being they are all digital devices, and they sound quite terrible. If you are going to use effects (And I'd stay with Delay and Chorus and doubling effects), use Analog based effects. These are the only way you'll get a sound worth of the stage. Digital delays are fine, but analog is better.
I would consider the clarinet a voice, not a guitar, and act accordingly. TC Helicon makes some fantastic products, and are completely worth looking into. They have multi-effects like talk-box, and distortion-like effects, phaser stuff, doubling, harmony effects. If you're looking for something that's usable outside the bedroom, I'd explore this option.
Barring that, you could always have David Guetta or Tiesto mix you a track, and then play over it.
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 11:17
Another point so I'm absolutely clear why you should not use distortion.
The point of distortion is to overdrive an amplifier. When you overdrive a PA, you get feedback. I have yet to see a horn player performing with a guitar amplifier in front of them, but that's what you'd have to do to use distortion properly. Distortion drives the amp in the guitar rig, which in turn is miked to the audience. Unfortunately you cannot do this with a live microphone, because you'd create feedback in this scenario as well. Your only option would be to install pickups in your clarinet (most likely in the barrel), and not have a dynamic microphone. Using a distortion box by itself is wrong. PA speakers and Keyboard speakers are not meant to be overdriven, only guitar speakers and amplifiers. I've seen many horn players try and fail at this, but until you understand the principles upon which these effects create their unique tones, you will not have success.
If you want distortion, Just growl into the instrument, it will create the same effect, and cost heaps less.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-21 13:34
DrewSorensenMusic, you gave an explanation of why some effects might not work great with a microphone. But re:
>> this will never translate well in the real world. <<
>> Octave doublers are nice, but not completely effective. <<
>> I would consider the clarinet a voice, not a guitar, and act accordingly. <<
>> Barring that, you could always have David Guetta or Tiesto mix you a track, and then play over it. <<
>> If you want distortion, Just growl into the instrument, it will create the same effect <<
These are all generalizations that don't really apply for a musician who is doing something specific. These are all "maybes". Someone who wants to use effects, or a specific effect, doesn't necessary just wants distortion, or an octaver, or to play over music like Tiesto's, etc. etc. Often they want to do something specific, there are usually some trials along the way. For example an octaver or harmonizer, I've seen/heard it used with wind instruments, both awful and great. It depends what the player is doing with it. Same with other effects. Some players might play great music and not consider the clarinet the same as what you or someone else considers it to be.
It just so happens that some players do use pickups. I do most of the time when I use effect pedals. It works through a hole in the barrel or neck (with clarinet and bass clarinet respectively). I've tried tons of effects. Some worked, some didn't. Some worked objectively but not subjectively, some just the opposite. Some of the TC Helicon effects were useless to me, some weren't.
Post Edited (2011-12-21 16:33)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-21 16:10
I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, Drew. First you insist that "progressive" must entail a significant change in the sound of the instrument, then you insist that all of these changes to the sound of the instrument are unacceptable.
Perhaps I'm too progressive, in that regard. I have a piezo attached to the reed, which goes through a chain of pedals to a bass amplifier. Noise reduction and EQ mitigate the feedback to a satisfactory level. The tone is reminiscent of clarinet, but is very much unique, and also has properties that separate it from traditional electric instruments (e.g. guitar).
>"I have yet to see a horn player performing with a guitar amplifier in front of them, but that's what you'd have to do to use distortion properly."
Which is exactly what I do. I've used this in the real world on many occasions. It's what earned me the title "World's Loudest Bass Clarinetist."
>"If you want distortion, Just growl into the instrument, it will create the same effect, and cost heaps less."
It is most definitely not the same effect, though a flutter-growl on low notes on bass will get you close to the same effect as old-school analog distortion. A distortion pedal sounds as close to a growl on my instrument as a snare drum sounds to a garbage disposal. Further, I find it difficult to sustain a growl over 5 solid minutes of speed metal licks.
The distortion pedal may not be the biggest bang-for-the-buck as far as pedals go, but it is plenty effective.
It's taken me two years of experimentation to reach a satisfactory setup for amplification, which I'm continuing to refine. It's most definitely possible to make this sound good.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 18:53
Well, I appreciate your guys conviction. Pickups is the way to go so that no feeback occurs, and if you're going through a guitar amp, then you're doing it the right way. I'm not sure that a guitar amp is made for the tonal spectrum that a bass clarinet performs, but I could be wrong, I haven't looked into that. If you guys are doing it, more power to you. I've tried some distortion pedals, but just didn't find the sound too appealing. Maybe you found a really good one.
EEbaum, I'd be interested in hearing your music, but all I could see of your pages was sheet music and t-shirts
I guess an appropriate question is what is progressive. I'd see it as changing the way we look at the clarinet or how we play it. Maybe changing how we look and perform music in general. Or changing how non-musicians listen to music.
I mention Hard Dance in this thread because that is the new music that I see popular on the radio, and seems to be what 99% of people associate with. Even if they say they don't like it, they still know of it and listen to it on some level.
Why I stopped trying to even add effects to the instrument, because those effects pertained to dead music: Rock, R&B, Metal, these genres of music have run their course. Now is the era of electonic instruments, midi controllers, auto-tune and lip-syncing. I say if you want to become a popular and successful musician, learn to dance. Outside of that, I think it's probably wise to stick in the realm that clarinetists have been assigned, and enjoy performing the work of great composers.
I could be completely wrong, sometimes I hope I am
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-21 19:35
Yeah, I need to put some demos up. I don't have any good recordings of my amplified rig, but I should at least toss something together.
You say rock, r&b, and metal are dead, and you propose instead playing the works of great composers?
Metal has largely run its course, but there's still a scene with people doing some pretty sweet stuff. Also, just because a genre isn't at the forefront, doesn't mean I'm going to abandon all the instrumental sounds that go with it, or even abandon playing music I like of those genres. If that was the case, we'd have ditched all the orchestral instruments decades ago.
You seem to have a rather poor opinion of the state of the popular music that's most successful these days, and I can't say I disagree. However, just because the most prominent pop music sucks balls, doesn't mean I'm going to abandon trying to make quality stuff. If anything, it gives me more motivation to fill the void.
My distortion pedal is a turd, just the generic Boss, which I got at the start of my experimentation. If pedals weren't so frickin expensive, I'd have a much better setup than I do right now. That said, I've had decent results with every pedal I've messed with; it's more a matter of finding the right pedals for the sound you want. For a long time, I was just stoked to have anything that worked because my amplification setup was so shaky. I'm just beginning to explore the pedalscape at the moment.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 21:41
Yes Alex,
I'm sorry to say, but my opinion of music today is less than good. But truthfully, not in a certain way. My opinion of "artists" is bad, but my opinion of the sound engineers is quite high, although I hate them. They seem to have bypassed the good musicians, and instead use auto-tune and effects to create the sound of today. My opinion of true musicians like yourself, that continue to further their own music, ideas, and beliefs, is quite high. Unfortunately, the way the people of the USA assimilate and enjoy music might not leave much success for those of us who have to find our own path.
Why classical music still works (although the Philadelphia orchestra has filed for bankruptcy, so this may not be competely true), is that the orchestra theatre has the sense of timelessness, and is more about status than anything (whatever to keep people coming really). I haven't heard a new Rock song on the radio in 11 years. R&B has melded to Hard Dance. There are some singer-songwriters in the mix of adult alternative.
All my friends that have their own bands have day jobs teaching or otherwise. They scrape by, but they are making it by. I respect that, but I do hope to perform as a career.
I'm interested to hearing a live gig with distortion Bass Clarinet. Forgive me if I'm still a bit skeptical that it could work, based on my past experience. I still think playing with a DJ is the way to go, and put a hellalot of delay all over it.
Boss pedals suck. VooDoo Labs pedals are awesome. Don't settle for crappy pedals, they will only hinder your progress. Boss Digital Delay is ok, especially if you need tap tempo. Analog Tap Tempo is crazy expensive.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-21 22:01
Yeah, I cluelessly bought a bunch of boss pedals, then learned that they suck. At least the resale value is pretty high.
I'll totally agree about the high quality of sound engineers these days. Some really fine work.
Any new rock, R&B, metal is mostly relegated to local underground scenes these days. You can find it if you dig, but it won't find you. IMHO, most of the successful stuff that's performed live by 5ish-person groups today is kinda stale, and begging for something fresh.
The radio is a poor example of the state music, though unfortunately it is many people's only exposure. Almost all radio in the US today sucks, badly. It's all so heavily corporatized that the playlists are either all nostalgia or are dictated by some advertiser/promoter/record co. There's no chance to stumble upon something new or original. I've stopped trying to find anything worth listening to in L.A., save for a handful of hours on NPR. It's all Mexican or 70s-80s-90s. Even KROQ, an institutional pillar of historically playing great music, just runs Nirvana half the time now.
My setup is still a bit shaky, and I'm working out issues with evenness across registers, since the mouthpiece/reed combo vibrates differently with different notes. Still, I've had reasonable success in a performance setting. It's a mixed bag if the sound is just coming out of my amp, but if I'm through the house with a good sound engineer, it goes pretty well. In intimate settings and crazy-loud noise jams, it's a lot easier to find appropriate levels; metal bands are the trickiest bunch to get the right blend.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 22:30
Truthfully, if you're playing metal, you may have it easier than other Rock genres. I'm pretty sure Krank is the main Amp brand in that style, and they make solid state amps that are cost effective. The tube amps are most expensive. But truthfully, a lot of guys like Led Zepplin and Jimi recorded on little 30 Watt amps in studio, so as long as you don't mind having a little amp next to you, those overdrive pretty well and are cheap. A good amp is most important, a good pedal can't make a bad amp sound good. Have you tried using a gate? I think ibanez might be the only company that makes them. Basically, I'm wondering how the beginings and ends of your notes sound, and they help with feedback. It sounds like you're converting guitar pedals into pedals for yourself. These may work in a different tonal spectrum than your bass clarinet, but I dig the concept of bass clarinet in metal. LA seems to have a big metal scene there. I just don't know how you keep up with the speed of metal guitar and bassists. That's some technical and fast playing. I've never owned one, but the eventide harmonizer seems sweet, although digital harmonizers, eh. I owned a digitech whammy, and it was cool, but digital really messes with the sound. Maybe better use the TC helicon harmonizer, and ask the guitarist to plug in to you so you can be in key. Seems easy to do. Digitech has a harmonizer that a guitarist can plug in as well I believe. Thing with metal is it's so digital, being an acoustic instrumentalist in that ensemble must be difficult.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-12-21 23:16
I have a noise reduction pedal, which is more or less a gate. Without it, feedback comes quickly and key noise is overbearing.
It's a tricky thing, metal on bass clarinet. Pretty exhausting, and I have to lay out to breathe once in a while. Also a real articulation workout. The biggest thing for me to get used to was the intense directionality of the sound when it comes out of an amp. Depending on where I'm standing, it may be crazy loud or may sound like I'm not playing at all.
Sometimes I also aim for feedback. One of my happiest moments was when I got some wild feedback in the neighborhood of 40Hz with everything hooked up to my contra.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2011-12-21 23:34
Oh man, your concerts must be something else.
I'm a theatre musician myself, so I guess I am a bit traditional. Anyway, my voice can't take all that screaming.
To be fair Jimi used feedback, and he was kinda successful.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-12-22 01:36
Quote:
To be fair Jimi used feedback, and he was kinda successful.
I don't recall him playing any clarinet, but I was pretty young. Was that at the Fillmore?
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