 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: dtiegs
Date: 2011-08-30 23:12
I am in middle school jazz band, and to be in jazz band we had to audition for it. We were told that only the best of the best can get in. Classes has been going on for nearly a week now, and new sheet music has been passed out. I was handed a 2nd Alto part for the first song, and I was fine with that, but as the period began to progress that was all that I was handed; EVERYTHING that was passed to me was 2nd alto sax. I realize that it could be that I am not as qualified as the person that was given 1st alto parts. But when he plays, it maddens me, when he misses notes and does the accents wrong, that I, not to sound conceded, would not make. Could it be that my director has no trust in me because I am first chair clarinet that just started in the middle of 7th grade, and played alto sax a couple of months later, and managed to make into jazz band? Or is he testing me? What am I suppose to do?
When we auditioned, I played the first parts, while the current first chair alto sax chose to play the second parts. He wouldn't dare to play the first parts due to the solo and the "high" notes. He even said that I was going to make first chair because he couldn't play the "high" notes with the accents. So now, I am playing second parts, with kids that are literally deaf and totally ignorant of my abilities; they call themselves, including me, " players that fill in the empty seats!"
So the real question is: AM I over reacting? and if not. What am I suppose to do?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-08-31 02:01
Sounds like the director isn't really aware of your ability compared to the other student. I'd have a talk with him - didn't the director hear your audition??
I've had plenty of Clarinet students take up Sax for a really brief time, and come in and own the Sax section. Hopefully the director will realize that you are the one that can play, and at least rotate the parts.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2011-08-31 09:11)
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Author: FDF
Date: 2011-08-31 02:15
"So the real question is: AM I over reacting?"
Yes.
"and if not."
You are.
"What am I suppose to do?"
Play your part and enjoy the music.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-31 03:27
Welcome to the world of music. You could ask the director what he thought was the reason you were not assigned the first part. Don't come on strong, don't sound like you're accusing him of being unfair. Make it sound more like you would like to learn what you had to do better to win that chair. It's possible the other kid does some things the director likes better than what you do, who knows? Be polite so it doesn't come back to you. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-08-31 04:06
I wouldn't worry about it too much at this stage. Unfortunately there is frequently little if any logic applied to determining the seating order in middle and high school band. Back when I was in high school the band director denied me the first chair position for a semester because I wouldn't play with the pep band at the school's football games. This was a bum deal since the reason I didn't play with the pep band was that I was actually on the football team and playing in the games at the time.
My advice would be to concentrate on playing the parts you are given as best you can and try to have fun. If the person seated ahead of you really is lousy then the director will notice it during rehearsal and may make a switch. This happened more than once when I was still in school.
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2011-08-31 07:35
..."I am first chair clarinet"...
So you're first chair clarinet. You can't be first chair at everything. Allow someone else a go too, even if you are a better player. Leading a section is one thing, playing as part of a section is also a skill you have to learn. I understand that you want to stretch yourself, but so does the other guy. As a section player you have just as much power to make or break a section as the principal does. Learn to play with the section leader and blend with them. - it will make you a better all-round musician.
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Author: salsacookies
Date: 2011-08-31 07:38
Is the other kid older than you? It may be a seniority thing. I was put in the 2nd clarinet section when I was a sophomore even though I was clearly a better player than some of the upperclassmen ahead of me. They got a higher chair because they were two years older. Some teachers believe, and it's not really a fair assessment, that older students are better than younger students.
My setup
Leblanc Legacy Bb with grenadilla barrel and bell, B45 w/Optimum lig.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2011-08-31 08:32
You're overreacting. You don't always get to play the part you want, nor the music you want, nor where and when you want. That's the deal with being a professional musician at least, and if you're serious about music (which, in fairness, you haven't mentioned) then you need to get used to shutting up and playing YOUR part well. It's called professionalism.
Plus, if you can play so well, and this other person is so bad, it's only a matter of time before it's noticed right?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-08-31 13:06
Volunteer for improv solos.
As a Professional, yes, never overstep your part boundaries. That dosnt apply though as a student - competition is good, and encouraged, as it keeps kids on their toes, and not relegate practicing music to a once in a while activity.
In 9th grade, unless you are a star, you will be at the lowest end of the totem pole. The Juniors, amd Seniors will get the premium spots, amd whatever is left over is what the lower class members get, or have to wait to even make it.
Maybe you could put it this way to the director: you could talk to him, telling him that you worked really hard over the summer (if you did, don't lie if not), and if there are any solo, or 1st part chances, you are up for the challenge.
Remember that as a 7th grader, it can be to his best interest to give you some 1st parts to get ou ready to shine for next year. The 8th grader still needs to have his day also, but if he had it last year, and you are indeed better (again, you can't second guess the director), there might be some opportunity later for you to have some first parts.
You never want to sound like you are complaining, as that won't get you anywhere.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2011-08-31 14:05)
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-08-31 14:29
I'd agree with Ed on this one. Enjoy playing the part you got, and just know that sometimes the hardest part to play is 2nd (especially if you don't feel like the person is holding up their responsibilities on the 1st part).
I'd also ask the director what you could do better next time on the audition. This can usually become common practice. Ask what you need to improve on. You never know what a committee/director is looking for, so if you know you're going to audition for them again, you know exactly what to aim for in your performance.
Jazz Band is usually considered an "honor's ensemble" at most schools, so be proud to be in it on your secondary instrument! And who knows, he could be handing you some clarinet parts in the near future. I played a lot of 2nd alto sax in jazz band when I was in high school, but was thrown every flute/piccolo solo that he could find.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-08-31 16:02
It may be that the director needs a strong player to hold the seconds together. Play the best you can, and if the director thinks you're good enough, who knows what might happen.
Tony F.
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-08-31 17:01
Can't hurt to have those first part solos perfected if the first chair misses rehearsal one day and you can step up to play them. Even if it is only for one day.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-31 17:36
It's middle school jazz band, not the Berlin Philharmonic. Use it as a routine to ground yourself, learn to play second parts well, and spend your efforts on more fruitful matters, like learning theory, improvising, forming ensembles or bands with friends, etc.
Getting fussy about your chair in ensembles is a dead end that will only get you more frustrated over time and typically ends in tears. I would advise you to try to purge from yourself the tendency to play as always biting at the heels of the person "above" you in any ensemble, and instead put your efforts towards maximizing your contribution to the group.
As an aside, in my experience, in any ensemble, an effective second, third, etc. player is a LOT more rare than an effective soloist.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Frightful
Date: 2011-08-31 18:56
Hey, it's just middle school, and at least you're still playing. I once in my sophomore year of high school was given the opportunity to play for a benefit concert, lead by my school's music directors. There was actually a pay/salary attached to these performances. I was set to play the second part (full orchestra), until literally minutes before the first rehearsal started, when I was told that the seating was changed and the part was to be given instead to a senior (I was told, in no unclear terms, that it was due to seniority).
Some times you just gotta take it. In jazz, the second and third parts (fourth, if you're playing trumpet!) can be just as fun. Enjoy making the music, and don't vent at anyone in particular.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-08-31 19:45
I would sugest simply doing your best at whatever part you get. I was in HS jazz band, and over the years, playred 2nd Alto, 2nd Tenor and Bari . I was always one of the top clarinet players in the school. I didn't take offense at playing the 2nd parts.
Now as an adult in a Concert Band, I am happy ot play wherever the conductor feels I will do the most good for the organization. This means I play mostly 2nd clarinet (1st chair) , but I also sometimes slip down and play 1st chair third, when they need a strong pkayer there, or if there is a solo on 3rd part. I play whatever in necessary for the good of the band.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 00:19
Im a sopmore in high school. If your band director is anything like mine he is 1. An idiot and 2 trying to groom you. My director gave me last chair every year in middle school even though i was the best clarinetist and only one who took lessons. My freshman year he let me compete at my states music festival and i got a gold rating. I was the only clarinetist in the school to even be elligable for state and one of only 4 people in my school to get a gold. I think he wants you to help those around you learn their instrament better and thats hard to do while sitting first chair. So maybe that is whats going on. If i were you i wouldnt worry about it and when you get into high school show everyone just what your made of.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-09-01 00:47
Ask him, "I'd really like to play lead alto. What can I do to get that part? I'm willing to re-audition."
There could be more in it than you think. For example, while I had won first chair as a junior in HS, I let the senior sit first chair because she simply wanted her family to be able to see her play as a senior. I had no problem with that. We both played first part, and I played the solos, but she sat closer to the audience so her family could get good photos of her last year in concert band.
You're in 7th grade. Certainly ask what you can do, but if it doesn't work and you still are playing 2nd, don't sweat it. Keep practicing, keep working on things, and you have PLENTY of years left to play.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-01 04:42
I'd recommend against asking for a re-audition. Those situations tend to end up in suck. Also, in my experience, almost any group that you can request a re-audition for is not worth re-auditioning for.
By far the most important and dramatic thing that has happened to musically in the past couple years is the realization that institutional ensembles (stuff a school runs) and non-educational "established" groups make only a very small part of the musical landscape. Treat them as a place to learn as much as you can, but don't place them on a be-all-end-all pedestal. I came to this realization in graduate school (at a place where the student ensembles dominated the landscape to the point that school-run groups were almost secondary)... you can have a huge head start in middle school if you branch out in that direction.
Be the person that starts ensembles, even if it's just a few of you jamming on the weekends. It'll get you much further and likely be much more fulfilling than relying solely on groups that go on no matter who's in them, and it will also allow you to not define your level of musical activity based on how many groups you successfully audition into.
When you're running your own wind quintet, metal band, klezmer trio, free improv noise group, or rock orchestra, the issue of whether you're first or second alto in a middle school jazz band will seem quite inconsequential.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-01 04:48
As an addendum, much of the commentary may center around "it's just middle school, it's small potatoes," which I would instinctively be inclined to agree with. However, I'm lately of the opinion that the same standard applies to high school groups, honor bands, community orchestras, college ensembles, etc. (I might even argue some pro groups) If it's a group with rotating membership that people audition in and out of, it's a static fixture that will fill itself with you or someone else. Whether you're first or second chair, or even whether you're in the group at all, may seem very important to you at the time, but in the big picture is quite inconsequential, the only real impact being what you get out of your time there.
Despite the countless musician bios on the internet that seem to suggest to the contrary, music isn't something that you can tick off on a scorecard of how many ensembles you've played in and competitions you've won.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-09-01 14:08
RyanD wrote:
> Im a sopmore in high school. If your band director is anything
> like mine he is 1. An idiot and 2 trying to groom you.
These two descriptors would most of the time contradict each other. If the director were truly an idiot, there would be no rhyme of reason for what he/she does because none of it would have any logical or musical rationale.
Some school music teachers are warm, fuzzy, and open about what they're doing. Some of them are more distant, cooler, and have what they consider to be strong reasons for what they do but don't want to share those reasons with their students. Some just aren't thinking about what they're doing at all and do dumb things.
Dalton, I agree with the posters who have suggested that you approach the band director and ask something along the line of "what do I need to improve in order to have a better audition result in the future?" If the answer is simply evasive, you'll just have to live with the chair you have if you want to stay in the group. If the answer really points out something you hadn't realized about your own playing (maybe your sax playing is fine but your sense of jazz and big band style aren't yet strong enough and playing 2nd reed is a good stylistic learning experience), you'll know what to concentrate on. If there's some non-musical issue going on, like giving the current 1st player one chance to play lead before he goes on to high school and gets buried by the competition there, at least you'll know it isn't your problem and that simply waiting will eventually result in an improvement for you. But one important caveat - *don't go to the director with an obviously cocky attitude that says you think he's an idiot or doesn't know what he's doing.* For good or ill, he's running the band, and showing a hostile attitude can't do anything but hurt you.
Happy playing,
Karl
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Author: dtiegs
Date: 2011-09-01 22:18
Thank You. I will discuss this manner with my band director. I thank you again.
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-01 23:23
Has anyone thought that his band director just dosent like him as much as the other kid? Some directors have favorites. Mine took 2 points off my playing test so that i wouldnt get to much of a better score than everyone else. When i asked him what he deducted for he said that my fingers on my right wernt staying close enough to the keys but everything else was perfect. The thing is that my right hand was in a cast because i had sprained it badly playing tennis :(
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-02 01:53
I'd say that's fairly likely, Ryan. It happens all the time, both intentionally and unintentionally. It's the way of the world, and it's a darn hard aspect to eliminate. It's unfair, like life. Get used to it, and don't dwell on it. There's so much more to music.
IMHO, it's not worth fussing about an ensemble if the people in charge will use something like "your fingers were in weird spots" to determine membership, and conversely you probably don't have much unique to offer if the only thing between your playing and the next guy's is "your fingers were in weird spots."
Again, if you're in charge of the group, you get to decide who's in it. So start one of your own. Find enthusiastic people first, then decide what to do.
The odd part about all this is that people seem to get all hung up on "I was a member of this orchestra and that honor band" as a measure of prestige, but in my experience the people, time and again, that instantly get the most credibility are the ones that have their own groups. They're also usually the better and more versatile players. And they're the ones that barely give a second thought to where they audition into other groups.
If you do decide to pursue this matter further, I would recommend ONLY pursuing it from a "how can I improve" angle.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-02 10:19
EEBaum you give some good advice but there was about 20 poimt diffrence between me and everyone else i got a 98/100 and the next highest score was a 89. Im not dwelling on it to bad as it happend last year. Also i was just sharing my experince with ditegs as to why the other kid might have the better chair.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-02 16:09
IMHO, any musical situation that is assigned points is complete BS. It's a completely backwards rubric, ESPECIALLY if the points are out of some hard maximum. I can discuss at length why it is a poor, even harmful situation.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: eac
Date: 2011-09-02 18:54
Just because a part is 1st, don't think think it is the "best" part. First part can actually can be easier to play, particularly if it's the melody while second and third parts can have larger challenges in rhythm. The inner voices provide the support and structure for the upper voices. Too much melody can become boring. Always playing first may actually slow your developing some fundamentals. Strong players are needed for all parts, not just first
Liz Leckey
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-02 20:43
EEBaum i am intrested to know your ideas on why you think grading kids in a band program is harmful. Its necissary because the school requires that every class give a final at the end of each semester.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-03 16:34
You can find other ways to grade students for a music class rather than assigning points to their musical ability.
I have multiple problems with assigning points for a musical performance, even aside from the whole "music is highly subjective" angle. They're mostly problematic to me if you don't realize that they're bogus.
The first, less significant, problem is that it doesn't grade the whole music-making process. It focuses on certain technical aspects. When a test is approaching, the tendency is to work on maximizing your performance on a test. This tragedy is paralleled with all the time wasted studying for standardized tests, learning how to answer certain math questions while neglecting learning how to do the actual math. As a result, you become very good at a subset of playing music, and that subset becomes viewed as the "important" bit. After all, if you get a 98 on a music test, it must mean that you're quite excellent in music!
The bigger problem I have, though, is much more systemic, and it's a problem that I've seen countless amateur and professional musicians impose on themselves without realizing it, one that limits them musically in a profound, fundamental way (I'd say about 90% of the musicians I've met and heard). That is the creation of a "perfect score" in music.
There is no such thing as a perfect score in music, or a perfect musical performance. This isn't due to some "nobody's perfect" platitudes. Rather, there are two main reasons for this: 1) music offers such a broad, wide field with such infinite possibilities that there's always something more you could have done, and 2) there are always multiple different ways a passage could be played that are mutually exclusive -- that is, it's logistically impossible to ever do everything you want with a musical passage.
Setting a personal standard of "perfect" for music can harm your playing in some significant ways, all of which I've seen happen on countless occasions:
1) It sets an artificial ceiling, which limits your possibilities. If someone enters a performance with a goal of their personal perception of a 100% perfect performance, they immediately close off the possibility of exceeding that personal limit. Doing something on the moment, unplanned, is often where moments of brilliance emerge. Many people inadvertently prevent this from having a chance of happening. Music is a continuous journey of discovering more things that can be done, and thinking you've enumerated the things that you can do stops your journey dead in its tracks. Anyone who thinks they just played something perfectly hasn't. Whenever I think I have a notion of how well something can be played, it's the surest sign that it's time to raise my standards.
2) It leads to "error-based" playing. When a performer has an artificial maximum set on their playing, they have an artificial ceiling set, and on top of this, anything they do that deviates from this ideal is seen as a defect. This leads to a significant, often crippling, detriment to playing, where a player focuses on how much "hasn't gone wrong". But they've sabotaged themselves before they played a single note. So often I've heard people, after a performance, say something like "I messed up 3 things that time." And it was always so, so many more.
3) It can take you out of the moment, putting you in "squeeze and go" autopilot. You've practiced something aiming for a perfect so many times, now it's time to see whether you can do it live. You know what "perfect" sounds like, so there becomes no need to react to something on stage. I hear this a lot when orchestral players play excerpts in context. It's the excerpt that got them the job, so they're certainly a frickin master of that passage. They play it technically flawlessly, but it will be a bit out of time with the rest of the orchestra, or it will completely ignore some awesome nuance that someone else in the orchestra has just played rather than expanding on it.
4) Music becomes a test. Watch people, especially soloists and orchestral musicians, during and after performance. Once in a while, they'll be in a mode of making, sharing, and enjoying the process of making great music. More often, though, after the performance they'll look at the audience with one of two looks: the look you get when you're waiting to see what grade you got on a test, or, good or bad, the look you get when you just got the score back on a test. They've just made music happen - something cool and vibrant and amazing - and they seem most concerned with "how well they did."
These can all be worked around, but they are all artificially imposed by treating music as something to be tackled and perfected, rather than something that can be continuously digested and improved and expanded upon. It is the number one thing that keeps performers in a box of mediocrity.
If you realize this, and you realize that any scoring system applied to music is 100% bogus, then I don't have a huge problem with using it as an incredibly flawed metric out of necessity. If, however, you treat such a system as having any merit, any indication of musical quality, you set yourself on a path to musical lousiness.
The thought of not being able to attain a perfect performance can be daunting, even frightening, in a world where we are ingrained to believe that there are concrete definitions of perfect scores, or even perfect plus extra credit. People like to minimize what they're doing wrong, and a field that offers infinite things you can do right, by definition, offers an equivalent infinite things you can do wrong. However, I find the broad unknown to be the beauty of music, something to be embraced rather than feared. Coming to this realization can be as liberating as striving for perfection can be stifling.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-09-03 22:08
I play different parts in different groups. In 2 out of the 3 orchestras I play in, I play Clar. II and utility (so Eb clarinet, bass clarinet, or alto sax, depending on the piece). I find it fun because I get to switch between different clarinets (sometimes within the same piece, depending on what it is). And, since most of the time I'm not playing the melody, I try to focus on theory (lowering the 3rd of a chord, etc.). I also work on how I can make switches sound better (embouchure-wise) and make them more fluid.
In the other group, I play co-principal, and in that group, I focus more on the musicality of playing the solo passages and helping those around me. It's a college-community orchestra that currently has 2 players each on 1st and 2nd and a music professor on bass. I sit between the other first player and the 2 seconds so I can help all of them; it's working working well so far and the other 3 players appreciate the pointers as I've been playing longer than any of them have been alive.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-03 22:23
EEBaum what ways would you grade students without testing them
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-04 01:41
Through an audition, the results of which are published as chair order only, not as scores. I would have my internal set of criteria. More likely, I'd be looking for certain traits rather than some numerical rubric.
Ideally, chair order will rotate, but I realize this is not an option in many ensembles. If this could all be done without audition, all the better, but in younger groups there tend to be players of wildly differing ability levels arriving sight unseen, so some sort of audition is usually necessary. I just got my masters degree from an institute that does not do chair auditions, and it works very well because there are enough ensembles, both official and student-run, that everyone always has plenty worthwhile to do.
Auditions are only really necessary when the people running the audition are unfamiliar with the playing of the people involved.
It's not the audition itself that I have that much beef with... it's often a necessary evil (though I tend to steer myself toward non-audition situations). It's the imposition, through auditions and otherwise, of the concept of music as something that can be quantized and has a theoretical maximum, because it inadvertently brings with it the baggage I described before.
I understand that people like having scores for things. That is only to the detriment of music, and the sooner a person can accept that it's not a score-compatible enterprise, the better.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-04 01:46
I actully wish my schools program was like what you described. It sounds alot less stressful than what I have to deal with.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-09-04 02:15
Indeed. The primary source of stress was having so much to do and so little time. In two years I had over 100 performances, very few of which had overlapping rep (though in most of them I also wasn't on the whole program). About 20 of those were in groups run by the school, the rest of which were in groups people put together on their own for recitals, outside performances, or just for the heck of it.
As I recommended above, if you start your own groups, you can put less energy into nitpicking your position in school-run ensembles, and treat them primarily as a place to learn and enjoy. They suddenly seem a lot less life-and-death important. Even if the school-run groups were audition-in, it would have made little difference to me, because my priorities went elsewhere.
I'm happy to offer input if things seem uncertain or slow-going in starting your own projects.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: RyanD
Date: 2011-09-04 02:25
Thanks EEBaum im going to try to start a little ensemble because that sounds like alot of fun.
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