 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2011-05-21 17:33
The Library of Congress makes historical sound recordings available to the public free of charge. There are more than 10,000 recordings made by the Victor Talking Machine Company between 1901 and 1925 ... all free to listen to.
Here is the Rhapsody in Blue, from 6/10/24, with the Paul Whiteman Concert Orchestra and George Gershwin playing piano. If you've never heard the original, it's an ear opener.
http://www.loc.gov/jukebox/recordings/detail/id/9922
...GBK
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2011-05-21 17:51
wow what an experience to hear something original
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-05-21 22:41
Thanks for the link, Mark. I've been listening to this in various recordings for about forty years. To hear this recording was a big surprise and somehow the piece slots more into its time now. I suppose I'm slow but this was a piece that had never sounded like it came from any particular period until I heard the Whiteman recording a few moments ago. Many thanks, no clarinet, wow! I'm assuming that the arranger was Ferde Grofé. Can anyone confirm that?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-05-21 23:21
"I'm assuming that the arranger was Ferde Grofé. Can anyone confirm that?"
It says it on the record label.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-05-22 00:43
Thank you, Chris. I'll use my eyes as well as ears next time. (I just discovered the image enlarger after listening to three or four different things.)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-05-22 02:47
It's curious that in the note on instrumentation no mention is actually made of clarinet. Perhaps it was a sax with tonal issues.
Tony F.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-05-22 04:46
No, it was a clarinet. I have noticed on some other recordings on the Victor label that the LOC refers to a Victor "ledger" as their source of instrumentation. They simply report the parts (or, perhaps, musicians?) listed in the ledger.
The parts used for this recording are probably an adaptation of the full Grofe score. First of all, even including the second side of the record (which, BTW, is here):
http://www.loc.gov/jukebox/recordings/detail/id/9921
the recording cuts about half the work. Also, while at least one saxophone part shows bassoon cues, I don't hear any bassoons in the recording. If my ears are right, it suggests that Whiteman cut down the orchestration.
In the full Grofe version, the opening clarinet solo appears both in a separate clarinet part and the first (alto) sax part. There's more clarinet in the recording than in the alto sax part but my guess would be that the lead alto probably doubled and only the sax part was listed in the Victor ledger. Ditto for the bass clarinet, probably played by the second (tenor) sax. I hear an uncredited oboe in the recording -- my guess would be another sax player.
In other words, the other instruments were in the recording but the parts were probably distributed among the four sax players and four saxophones is what Victor listed in the ledger. Maybe, as I suggested above, the "ledger" listed the musicians to be paid and LOC has misconstrued this to indicate "instrumentation."
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-05-22 04:48)
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-05-22 05:47
I performed this in the original orchestration with the Auckland Chamber Orchestra in 2009 (i was principal clarinet and got to do the solo, yay!) and we dealt with the doubling by having extra people to cover bits- i recall the oboe part, and that my colleague sat on stage to play one (maybe two) little exposed bits, but can't remember which part it was cut and pasted from....
I played Clarinet and E flat clarinet, i have a funny feeling that the Oboe might have been in my part actually? As i was also playing Alto sax in the same concert i know i would have covered any Sax if it had been in my part.
"Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue came not with orchestral overload but in the original 1924 arrangement first heard at Paul Whiteman's historic Aeolian Hall concert. A small band of violins added the sort of trimmings that went along with Whiteman's desire to make a lady out of jazz, but Paul McIver's resolute banjo reminded us of its plantation roots.
Called to action by the magnificent wail of Donald Nicholls' clarinet, the musicians let loose in the best of all possible ways. In the midst, piano man Read Gainsford's stylings made Oscar Levant's description of the work as a "febrile tornado" seem an understatement." (NZ Herald)
(apologies to Red Chair for self aggrandisement)
I loved playing the band version- though having also done it with APO (on both 2nd clarinet and Tenor) i can say that i really like the "full orchestration" for the opening section.
dn
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-22 14:00
The interesting question to me is why nobody plays the opening solo anywhere near the way Russ Gorman played it on this recording.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-05-22 15:59
Several years ago we performed the Rhapsody with George at the piano. That is we used his player piano version of him playing piano with the original instrumentation for the Paul Whitman orchestra which was actually a big band. Grofe did not do the arrangement of that original version. Grofe did the version we usually play for full symphony orchestra. By the way, George sounded very good. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-05-22 16:35
I believe Grofe orchestrated all the versions of Rhapsody in Blue.
However, Gershwin did orchestrate the Piano Concerto in F unassisted.
Paul Lavalle, the famous bandleader, told me that he attended that concert, and the reason Gorman played the opening the way he did was because he was quite inebriated.
BTW, Gorman glisses the entire scale, not just from over the break.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-05-23 01:43
Well, I'm an idiot, because somewhere in my bookmarks lists I have a site bookmarked that has clickable MP3s of several different versions of Rhapsody in Blue, as well as clickable mp3 files of a number of other (as I remember) "hot" bands from the 20s. One of the RiB versions is also supposedly from 1924, and is remarkably like this version (it's clearly Ross Gorman, playing pretty much the same) but sonically much different--a lot murkier, a little of that "underwater echo" sound that mp3 files get when they've been stepped on once too often. I can't tell, from a casual listen, whether they're actually different performances, or just the recordings sound so different.
Let's see if I can upload it, just for giggles.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-05-23 02:06
OOps, guess not. I tried uploading the mp3 directly off my desktop, and while I KNOW I have the bookmark for the original file on that @$% webpage, I can't find it.
I suppose embedding mp3s in my post isn't possible...is it?
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-05-23 04:00
Several recordings by the Paul Whiteman Orchestra can be found here:
http://www.redhotjazz.com/pwo.html
Including several of Rhapsody in Blue.
Well, nevermind. They use to be but the site seems to be having issues right now.
Post Edited (2011-05-23 04:11)
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-05-23 11:54
I love this original version but one would not win an audition playing it this way unfortunately unless the conductor really knew the original.
Grofe did not orchestrate the original performance version which was completed just before the performance.
Gershwin was using the Lizst Rhapsodies as a model which in this performance comes off as being more sectionalized (which I personally like) rather than a big symphonic whole.
Gorman was said to be goofing off in the dress rehearsal doing Klezmer stuff when Gershwin heard the gliss and asked him to add it to the opening. I have heard that Tom Martin can do the gliss from the bottom. If he reads this board, perhaps he can comment.
I really like the rougher Tin Pan Alley feel of this rather than what we now hear as being the work. Has much more character and comes off as really being a product of the era.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-23 13:49
There used to be many versions of RiB on YouTube and other sites, including my favorite version of the solo by Al Gallodoro. However, all of them were taken down, undoubtedly at the demand of the Gershwin estate or other owner of the copyright.
I assume that new uploads are made from time to time. If you're OK on the copyright violation, you need to grab them quick before the estate learns of them. I assume that the Library of Congress has special permission.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2011-05-23 14:43
"The interesting question to me is why nobody plays the opening solo anywhere near the way Russ Gorman played it on this recording."
Probably........., because very few "good" clarinetists learn to have that kind of fun with their clarinets. Fwiw--my favorite version is played by Al Galladoro. On one of his recordings, he glissed "seamlessly" from the low G all the way up to the C. In his later years--90's, I think--he said he could only do that if he "was is shape". Al continued to play jazz gigs until just a short time before his death--a remarkable musical career and great musician.
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2011-05-23 15:19
I sought this version out years ago after reading a history of Rhapsody in Blue and reflecting that none of the versions I knew had much of the 1920's "jazz" sound that it was supposedly trying to promote. This version was a revelation, especially the Klezmer-influenced clarinet. It does sound as much like a show tune as a "jazz" tune, but that works for both Gershwin and Whitman, both of whom were straddling two musical worlds.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-05-23 18:33
Thank you, DNBoone, that's exactly the site I was thinking of, and that's where I got the version of RiB I mentioned.
If it's IP lawyers that broke all the links, I say down with IP lawyers--they're getting too damn indiscriminate about what gets yanked. I don't understand the logic--pay IP lawyers a bunch of money to keep people from getting stuff for free, then hide it in a hole someplace so NOBODY can get it, paying customer or not. Some revenue model.
As to Ross Gorman's gliss, I listened to some of the Rudy Wiedoeft stuff on the Library of Congress link as well, and it's full of swoops and glisses and "humorous" effects in keeping with "novelty" numbers of the time, so possibly that's part of the inspiration for Gorman's approach too, in addition to any Klezmer-ish influences.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-05-23 18:47
DougR wrote:
> If it's IP lawyers that broke all the links, I say down with IP
> lawyers--they're getting too damn indiscriminate about what
> gets yanked.
So, taking your property is OK? I'll guess I'll decide what of yours I can freely take without asking permission, and offering no remuneration to you.
We might argue about the term of copyright - but I'm not so sure you want to argue the ownership during the prescribed term.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-05-23 21:27
Ken, while Rudy Wiedoeft was amazing, there's nothing amazing about having done it "all on the C Melody sax". I have three of them, two are completely restored, I play them on gigs and everything. Other than a very uncomfortable neck angle (horizontal or even slightly below horizontal as the instruments were designed to be held to the side and tilted way back), they play exactly as you would expect a sax about halfway in pitch between a tenor and an alto to play -- that is, about halfway between and tenor and an alto. One of my horns (as well as a couple of my altos) is the Holton "Rudy Wiedoeft" model, in fact -- but I've read that Frank Holton's company used Wiedoeft's name without his permission, and he never made a dime from it!
That said, I understand he played the "normal" alto sax as well (also phenomenally).
Pardon the digression..............
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-05-23 21:43
Dileep Gangolli wrote:
Grofe did not orchestrate the original performance version which was completed just before the performance.
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He is not correct.
I know Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source, but I have confirmed this with several other sources, including the Jablonski/Stewart biography.
Grofe orchestrated all three versions.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-05-24 23:08
Thanks for correcting (if you are indeed correct).
Not sure when Grofe would have done the manuscript/copying as I thought the ink was wet when Gershwin delivered it to Whiteman.
But perhaps he was around during the rehearsals etc.
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