 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Snowy
Date: 2009-09-03 21:48
Out here in Melbourne, Australia the auction site which shall not be named has had a series of listings for a lightly used set of Slemer 10S's. The current listing has hem as buy now for $AU5,300 . A previous listing could for the want of a bid have seen them sold for $AU1500 and - as I understand the rules of that unnameable site- the seller would have been bound to complete the sale..
I enquired from a music store proprietor whether they might not , at that price, be a business proposition for him to turn over . His reply was that none of his stores in several State capitals demonstrated any demand whatever for a Selmer 10S pair.
As a longtime committed Selmer 10S user- own 4, don't want any more - I find this apparent total lack of demand simply hard to believe and so I have posted this. Anybody not able to find the item in completed listings is welcome to email me for the reference.
[ At this time, the clarinets mentioned are a "completed auction" and not presently offered for sale - GBK ]
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2009-09-03 22:13
That's really odd. Personally I haven't played a buffet I have really liked. I have probably only touched around 15-20ish though. I ended up getting an older Leblanc Esprite that responds and sounds better than any of them. I actually had several of the buffet players play it and listen to it before I bought it and several of them were quite angry that I paid less than half for my clarinet that sounds better than theirs.
Of course, in my parts there is a big buffet mafia with occasional selmer, leblanc players. but whenever anyone looks for anew clarinet it does seem that the only consideration is a buffet and that the only recommendation from HS teachers seems to be buffet.
(in fact, my HS assistant band director was a clarinetist and would probably puke if she knew I had a leblanc over a buffet)
On the other hand, as a bass clarinet specialist, I know very very few people who prefer the Buffet 1193 over a Selmer 67.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-03 22:39
I think part of the seller's problem stems from trying to sell the two clarinets as a set. My guess is that many prospective buyers who might consider the Bb don't want an A and most people looking for a used A, probably already have a decent Bb. I suspect that most folks in the market for a set want a new set. I think the seller would do much better offering the instruments individually.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexis
Date: 2009-09-03 22:59
The problem is, the orchestras are dominated by buffet players in oz. I don't think there is a single player in a symphony playing on an alternative - definitely not a principal player.
Floyd plays Selmers in Brisbane last I heard, and Robert Schubert plays Leblanc I believe. Other than that, its pretty slim pickings.
But Australia is a pretty young scene. I think it will change in the next 20 years or so.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-03 23:12
Most of my section mates haven't heard of clarinets NOT made by Buffet...I'm really the odd one out with my Marigaux.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2009-09-04 00:15
Indeed most do play Buffet in Australia, though the scene probably will change over the next 20 years as theres growing interest in the Leblanc/Backun clarinets :p
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-04 00:31
Just this evening I had someone ask me what make my clarinets were. When I told her, she'd never heard of Selmer! I presume Leblanc would be unknown to her too.
I don't know anyone else (apart from Ben) with Marigaux clarinets, or anyone else with a Marigaux cor anglais - but I do know someone with a Marigaux bari sax!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-09-04 01:46
(alert: tangential foray from topic) -- Chris P, I don't think Marigaux actually made a bari sax; in the US anyway, Marigaux saxes were marketed by King (H.N. White) and sold as "King Marigaux", but were actually made in Germany by Julius Keilwerth.
If anyone cares.
As for the Buffet Mafia, I will fight them to the death with my Kohlerts, my Booseys, and my Couesnons. I used to be afraid of Ce Qui Est à Nous des Clarinettes* (hence my 'underground' period), but now I've decided to fight them out in the open. Who will join me?
*poor translation of "Clarinet Cosa Nostra"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-09-04 09:19
I guess Selmer Paris do have a low profile compared to the other 3, and I'm not sure it's helped by the confusing existence of Selmer USA.
Auctions are a funny thing. You don't get to see or try the item and it's only listed for a short time. To buy a high value item you have to be in the right place at the right time and willing to wager a lot of money.
Retail is also a funny thing. There's a balance to strike between the margin on an item and how long you'd have to keep it on your shelf before the right customer finds it. I guess that's a call for the individual retailer. All other things being equal, a retailer will often choose to stock a limited range of whatever sells quickest. And if this happens to be Buffet, that just reinforces the impression that Buffet is all there is, and more people come into the shop asking for Buffet, and so on and so forth.
Personally when I last went instrument shopping I chose a retailer who stocked competing brands, I tried them all, and I didn't walk away with a Buffet.
EDIT: Having said all that, I do still like the sound of the RC very much. But the ones I tried I found difficult to control for reasons that weren't obvious.
Post Edited (2009-09-07 15:37)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-04 11:10
"Chris P, I don't think Marigaux actually made a bari sax; in the US anyway, Marigaux saxes were marketed by King (H.N. White) and sold as "King Marigaux", but were actually made in Germany by Julius Keilwerth."
Are you sure these were made by Keilwerth?
http://saxpics.com/?v=img&img=/cpg143/albums/sml/gold_medal_i/bari/lacquer/165xx_vs/a.jpg#imgTop
The 'New King' saxes were Keilwerths, but the SML baris looked more Buffet-like to me if anything.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-09-04 11:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-04 12:14
Well, in my band, everyone was part of the Cartel with the following exceptions:
My daughter played a Normandy Eefer (and my old Buffet Bb).
The first chair 3rd plays a Selmer CT.
I play a Lyrique.
Our Bass Clarinetist has an older Selmer.
Our last chair has a lower level B&H.
Everyone else is on Buffets, including one first clarinet with a horn from the 1930s.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-04 13:03
I'll join you David with my wonderful Eaton Elites.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Molloy
Date: 2009-09-04 14:00
[ As for the Buffet Mafia, I will fight them to the death with my Kohlerts, my Booseys, and my Couesnons. I used to be afraid of Ce Qui Est à Nous des Clarinettes* (hence my 'underground' period), but now I've decided to fight them out in the open. Who will join me? ]
I'm in! When I got to pick a clarinet for my neice, it was a Selmer 55 -- almost like new, $150 + $250 for the overhaul. I'm playing Penzel Mueller (Bb), Selmer (A), Triebert (C), Patricola (Eb), Pedler (alto), Noblet (bass) and Fox (Bohlen-Pierce). My only Buffet is a decrepit thing from around 1900 that came in a package deal with something I wanted.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-09-04 16:19
Since we are speaking of the Selmers mainly, I must add that the new Selmer Privilege sopranos are amazing horns. If it does not become a dominant force in years to come it will only be for the lack of us trying them and it would be a shame if this model were lost to posterity.
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2009-09-04 23:35
alert: tangential foray from topic) -- Chris P, I don't think Marigaux actually made a bari sax; in the US anyway, Marigaux saxes were marketed by King (H.N. White) and sold as "King Marigaux", but were actually made in Germany by Julius Keilwerth.
The 'New King' saxes were Keilwerths, but the SML baris looked more Buffet-like to me if anything.
Davis and Chris,
I have sold, repaired and played the King line for many years, I do remember the King Marigaux model saxes. If I had to bet my grandmother’s teeth on this I would say they were made in France. I have to admit I was fairly young at that time but I was repairing quite a few saxes that were from other countries. They did change at one time, after Dan Heinkin purchased both Conn and King, they scrapped their pro saxes and brought in Keilworth saxes (2 different models) to be their semi and pro sax models. They were different from the Marigaux in every way, they were not the same sax.
I could be wrong but I have many memories of those saxes, and I have never seen a Marigaux bari, they were as expensive as Buffet Bari saxes before they were discontinued. Ouch!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-09-05 04:31
Re: King Marigaux saxes, I was wrong -- from what I've read over at SaxOnTheWeb (SOTW) they were indeed made in France by Marigaux. Fred Cicetti wrote at SOTW that:
"....SML began making saxophones when the company was founded -- two years before Selmer introduced its revolutionary Balanced Action saxophone. SML ceased production of saxes in 1982; at the time, the company was making 400 saxes a year. It was also selling saxes to King Musical Instruments, which marketed them under the name,"King Marigaux." A company spokesperson said SML stopped making saxophones because "we just couldn't compete with Selmer anymore." "
My apologies.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-05 12:21
Shame SML saxes didn't have more modern keywork - maybe that would have swung things their way.
Having played mainly on older Selmer Bbs and As from fairly early on, I definitely prefer the older large bore Selmers to anything else I've tried.
Although I love the huge tone of Selmer basses, they're far too expensive and I didn't care much for the keywork as it felt heavy under the fingers - Buffets do have the better balanced keywork of the two makes (though they could do with redesigning the thumb keys on their basset horns).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stacyc
Date: 2009-09-07 02:19
LOL at the "Buffet Mafia"!! I tried to play an R13 for a short period of time and really hated it. To be honest, I begged my parents at the time to shell out the massive amount of money just to have the Buffet. The hype soon turned to disappointment with the stuffy/shallow tone that I heard bellow out of it. (Its funny that 13 yrs later I still remember how bad the disappointment felt lol).
That is when I became a Selmer fan for life. I sold the R13 to a friend of mine who was coveting my piece of crap Buffet and took the 120 mile drive to the closest Selmer dealer and after that day I will play nothing but a Selmer. Right now I have an old but wonderful Selmer Soloist for myself and starting my son out on a Signet Special, which if I must say, has almost as warm of a tone as my Soloist.
But to get to my point, I think with the "younger" clarinetists its about the name they hear most often which just happens to be Buffet. So I am with the Selmer gang. The "Buffet Mafia" hasn't won quite yet :P
~~Been playing clarinet 17yrs and counting, now playing with the local community orchestra and now my son has taken on the tradition and I couldn't be more proud!~~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2009-09-07 08:20
I think the 'Buffet Mafia' exists only in the head of some people. I own a Buffet clarinet but I just think of myself as a clarinet player, my instrument as a clarinet, and hopefully good music will prevail.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-09-07 14:09
I recently picked up an old Pedler full-Boehm clarinet on The Site That Must Not be Named (seller had described it as just "old clarinet" and had one fuzzy photo, so I got it for about $80), and it has such a sweet sound that I'm going to put my Buffet up for sale.
Realistically, I think that every individual horn will have its own properties and character, and it behooves a musician to try a variety of horns before deciding which is the best for him. The Buffet doesn't meet your expectations? Try a second or a third one, and then do the same with Selmer, Ridenour, and any other brands available in your part of the world. You're going to be dropping a lot of money for it and will have it for many years, so take your time, be patient and don't get locked into one brand without trying others.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Molloy
Date: 2009-09-07 16:14
"I think the 'Buffet Mafia' exists only in the head of some people."
Obviously there's hyperbole involved in the 'Mafia' bit, but the phenomenon is very real. There are many situations where it is understood, explicitly or implicitly, that real clarinetists play Buffet. I encounter that more often than not.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
