 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Augustus
Date: 2007-10-15 15:15
I am new to the B Board and posted a question in an existing topic, so I am trying again, hoping I can get more answers. I am an 80 year old amatuer who recently returned to playing because I love the clarinet. I grew up in the Big Band Era and attended many shows by many well known bands. Even heard Benny Goodman play Mozart in Central Park.
Recently I watched Artie Shaw play his Clarinette Concerto on the YouTube and I noticed that he played with the clarinet held straight out. I have noticed other Swing or Jazz players who do the same. Keith Stein in his book "the art of Clarinet playing" recommends a 35 to 40 degree angle away from the body. I have tried holder it much higher and found that fingering is easier, my tongue hits the tip of the reed, rather than lower, and as long as I keep up a good air pressure high notes sound better.
My Question: What is the Best angle for playing and maintaining a good embouchere? Do Doublers who play Sax have play the clarinet at a higher angle? What have you experience players found to be best?-
Thanks for you patience.
Augustus
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-10-15 15:40
The angle is slightly different for everyone, but usually within the realm of 35-45 degrees. I do think that you should follow Keith Stein's advice, and here's why. The angle of the clarinet (combined with good posture) is directly related to the amount of reed you get in your mouth. More reed in the mouth results in more of the reed vibrating. The more reed you have vibrating, the richer the sound.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-10-15 16:04
Augustus,
The 35-40 degree angle may be a useful starting point for students, until they have enough experience to find their own best angles.
Your question "Do Doublers who play Sax have the clarinet at a higher angle?" raises an interesting point. Artie Shaw started on C Melody sax before switching to clarinet, which could explain his tendency to play with a larger angle.
Dick Johnson, another doubler who currently leads the Artie Shaw Orchestra, looks to me as if his angle is greater too. Both have a very rich sound.
I double as well (clarinet/alto/C Melody/tenor), and could not play clarinet comfortably with a 35-40 degree angle.
The only thing that matters is what produces the best results for you.
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-15 16:43
Welcome, ?Gus?, from an 88 yr. "youngster" - Hans and C R say it very well. My sop cl playing angle is about 45-50 degrees [from vertical], prob. influenced by my teeth "overbite" as well as recent alto and bass cl playing, perhaps by earlier sax playing [all 4]. As in Annie Git ur Gun, jest doin' hut comes nachurlie. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: susieray
Date: 2007-10-15 19:57
If try different angles while playing an open G you'll be able to see for yourself where the best spot is for YOU. The sound changes pretty drastically between way close to your body and out straight. Usually there's a sweet spot in the middle somewhere that sounds best. It varies from person to person.
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2007-10-16 02:11
I did a tour with the Artie Shaw Band a few years ago (4th Tenor/Clarinet), and Dick would basically play with a fairly standard angle most of the time, occasionally bringing the bell up for dramatic purposes. He plays on large bore Selmers and gets an enormous sound, and is a great player. He was the only person that Mr Shaw would entrust his band to.
The other salient factor here is the angle of your face; if your head goes back as the bell rises, there is not such a radical shift in angle as it may first appear. Certainly some players do play with more of a saxophone angle on clarinet, but as previous posters have stated, it's really up to the individual in terms of sound and response. As someone stated, simply holding a note and slowly raising the bell (without changing the angle of the face) will quickly reveal the effect of the angle on the sound and response, articulation, etc. I do this with students on a regular basis.
AB
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-16 09:08
When I started clarinet I was a sax player and I held the clarinet very high. Several years later, and not playing sax anymore, I have a very average position and I would teach any student to shy away from playing straight out.
In rare situations I do hold the clarinet straight, but this is only to get a particular sound for 'that one spot'- I would not condone it as a regular position.
Also, I rarely play non-classical (jazz or otherwise); I would not doubt that I would play differently if I played in another style.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2007-10-16 15:32
Curiously, I've seen this Berlin Philharmonic clarinettist who holds his clarinet as such that his jaw is almost touching the ligature, and the bell is almost parallel to his body, maybe at an angle of 10 - 15 degrees?
Anyone has any thoughts on such a posture?
Chan
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-10-16 21:08
I think one of the reason Artie Shaw played with the bell up was for projection. Same reason for playing in the high registers. IMHO a lot of those high notes are not that pleasant to listen to.
...Jim
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2007-10-16 21:32
And let's not forget that Gustav Mahler himself instructed the clarinets to play with "Bells Up" in numerous symphonic passages, I'm sure for added projection amid the storm and fury!
AB
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Author: Avie
Date: 2007-10-16 22:23
Probably one of the reasons Artie Shaw was one of the greatest. Which ever angle brings out the best tone of the note being played. But I would go along with Keith Steins 45 degrees and Dons what ever comes naturally.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-17 06:20
I was alarmed watching 'Classical Star' (BBC2) last night that had the most uncomfortable looking posture I've seen for a relatively experienced young clarinet player - he held the clarinet pointing straight downwards. Even the panel of judges were concerned by his posture and embouchure.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: xingfan1227
Date: 2009-07-30 05:36
I know it's been quite long since the original post, but just for future reference, I'll add my two cents here..
If the clarinet is held higher than 45 degrees (assuming the head is in the normal position) from the body, then the player is using a different tonguing technique -- more like the sax -- they are using just millimeters away from the tip of the tongue to touch the very tip of reed, basically the the tongue is just closing the opening of the mouthpiece. This is different from the standard tonguing where the tip of the tongue is on the reed right below the tip of the reed.
Also when clarinet is held in higher angles, the upper lip/teeth goes deeper into the mouthpiece.
I tend to do this since I play sax quite often too. I try to change it to a normal posture but it's quite difficult. I think it does work well in terms of tonguing and tone, however, since most clarinet mouthpieces are designed to "blow across", (instead of sax mouthpieces, which are designed to "blow through"), thus holding clarinet high does not yield the optimal result. But oh well, for doublers like myself, it's very very hard to not let one affect the other.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-07-30 15:30
xingfan: I have never heard that clarinet and sax mouthpieces are designed differently as you describe above and find it quite interesting.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-08-03 04:53
The "right" angle depends upon the conformation of your jaw and teeth. Experiment to find that angle. Test youself frequently to see of raising the bell improves your sound. CRNichols is right in that you don't want to pinch off the reed by holding the instrument too close to your body.
TESTING
TESTING...
Bob Phillips
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-08-03 13:33
Tom Ridenour has an interesting and pretty good way to form an embouchure. Someone please double check me as my book is not with me, but I believe you form an embouchure with your mouth, and put the mouthpiece in there afterwards. Then, without adjusting your embouchure, you move the clarinet downards so the clarinet is putting pressure on the reed against your stable jaw, instead of you biting your jaw upwards to meet the reed. This would differentiate embouchures based on your jaw lines.
I suffer from what I effectionally call "cro-magnon-ism". Basically my lower jaw kept growing, and outgrew my upper jaw resulting in a bite where my lower teeth stick out in front of my upper teeth (much like a barricuda). Because of this, trying to bring a clarinet closer to my body would be HIGHLY uncomfortable. So if were looking straight up, my clarinet would stick out further away from the body because my lower jaw sits farther forward than my upper. If I want to "fit in" or not look like I'm sticking out, I lower my head a little while playing. If I don't mind it sticking out, I look straight ahead.
Alexi
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-08-03 15:38
Ah,Alexi, that's the famous Habsburg jaw.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-08-03 16:03
As I wrote a couple of years ago, anatomy is destiny.
Many important clarinetists have had receding chins and therefore played with the instrument almost vertical: Daniel Bonade, Ralph McLane, Robert Marcellus and Bernard Portnoy.
Others have had protruding chins and played with the clarinet held well out from the body: Alan Balter, David Weber, Artie Shaw.
Steve Girko has a short chin and angled teeth. He plays with the instrument nearly vertical and the mouthpiece turned well to the side.
Certainly some players hold the instrument out for show: Benny Goodman and to some degree Artie Shaw.
You do what works.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-08-03 17:20
Hmm....it would be interesting to see if playing with bells up actually improves projection. My understanding is that with clarinets, the sound mostly projects from the tone holes, not the bell--that's one reason why clarinets are so difficult to mic. In that case, I would think a soloist ought to have better projection with a more vertical position.
On the other hand, a clarinetist sitting near the back of an orchestra with a sound-reflecting music stand and rows of other presumably sound-absorbing/diffusing players in front of him/her might get better projection from pointing the clarinet upward in a more horizontal position so that the sound reflects downward toward the audience from the ceiling--or so it would seem. I haven't tried to test this and don't know anyone who has.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-08-03 19:49
Playing straight out is discouraged by the shape of the mouthpiece beak. A duckbill is more suited to this angle.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Sabinemeyerlol
Date: 2009-08-05 20:39
really think it depends on your overbite
little overbite - held more up
huge overbite - cuddle the clarinet
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