 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-19 14:56
I guess I can't walk and chew gum at the same time because when I use my foot to keep time it actually distracts me from reading the music or especially when practicing complicated scales that are written in 16th notes. It also slows me down because I'm doing two things at once. Should I just not use my foot and try to keep time in my head?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-19 15:00
Keep time in your head. Practice with a metronome a significant amount of your practice time.
Keeping time in another portion of your body doesn't really make sense. Time is in your mind, and your mind directs your body. Musicians who marry their time to an appendage often lack flexibility when they most need it.
Use the metronome religiously to improve your sense of pulse and the accuracy of your rhythm and you'll never need your foot.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-06-19 18:04
James,
Beautifully said. I agree wholeheartedly.
I would add my tack in this though which is: The rythm is "in the air." That is, if you are playing a single quarter note, the rythm IS what is defined by the moment you start the sound to the moment you stop the sound.
So.........
Play note; repeat
THAT is rythm.
A wagging foot means nothing if the above procedure does not accomplish EVEN, steady rythm from your axe.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-19 18:26
Paul Aviles wrote:
> James,
>
> Beautifully said. I agree wholeheartedly.
>
>
> I would add my tack in this though which is: The rythm is "in
> the air." That is, if you are playing a single quarter note,
> the rythm IS what is defined by the moment you start the sound
> to the moment you stop the sound.
>
> So.........
>
> Play note; repeat
>
> THAT is rythm.
>
> A wagging foot means nothing if the above procedure does not
> accomplish EVEN, steady rythm from your axe.
>
>
>
> ....................Paul Aviles
>
Where I really get in trouble is when I'm playing a piece of music that has difficult rythems. Like Irish or Scottish music which I play a lot. Or what is really hard is slured rythems like in blues. It's really difficult to keep time in my head when playing music as mentioned. But It seems that I need to learn because using my foot really slows me down.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-06-20 15:25
At times, my teacher has insisted that something on my body MOVE with a steady beat. He needs to know that I've got the pulse set and steady. When that's done, breaking the pulse into rhythms can begin.
Its tough for me because I often let (say) my foot tapping "slip" to match the figure being played --rather than forcing it to "be in charge."
Amongst my biggest rhythmic challenges are ragtime pieces by, say, Scott Joplin.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2008-06-20 18:17
But can you FEEL the pulse in your insides? I feel it as an indescribable motion in the centre of my self. (Maybe from the many childhood days on the schoolyard swings? That's a rhythm too. So are the jump rope rhymes chanted in time to the swinging rope.) Ragtime and blues are some of the most fascinating rhythms around, and for me it's great fun to be able to play the combinations of being slightly ahead of or on the beat. Sometimes it's worse to try to figure it out intellectually. It's so much easier to hear the tune in your head and trust your instincts if you're talented this way.
The principle percussionist in our orchestra told me that the way some of the rhythms are written is pretty baffling to figure out, but that once you get the feel of the piece it's far easier to play than it is to read.
From personal experience I've found that some students simply cannot feel the rhythm inside. Having to teach such a thing was bewildering to me since it had always been second nature, and I thought that it was the same for everyone. Some very small children will naturally rock or jump in time to tunes without being taught. Our little 3-yr-old visitor made one such impromptu demonstration for my student during her lesson!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-20 19:47
Alex,
That is because everyone feels the start of the beat in a different part of the motion. For some it is when the sole of the foot hits the ground...for others it is exactly as the downward motion begins...
Another reason not to tap your foot.
There are feels to rhythm...but I do believe that you must be able to intellectually understand what is going on as much as you can listen and adjust.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-20 20:37
So I take it then that foot tapping or body moving is definately not good? I mean just do not do it?
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Author: D
Date: 2008-06-20 20:44
I think you are probably better off with a pencil and eraser to mark the beats on the music where it gets complicated. I spent ages failing to 'get it' at a rehearsal the other night. Conductor doing that really annoying thing where they clap the beat and go dah daaaah dah with their voice. Which is supposed to magically make it all clear. Just confuses me. I either need them to sing it (I asked, she refused) or play it. In the end we settled for her clapping quavers and dah daaaaahing. That worked out better. I'll have forgotten it by next rehearsal though, and it's the last one before the concert! aahhhhhh. Embarrassing though cos she knows I hate that piece and I'm sure they think I am trying to sabotage it on purpose, not true, just incompetent.
Sorry, back on topic. I've been in bands where we are forbidden to twitch in time to the music in any way and are requested to follow the conductor, not keep our own time. Which I suppose is the conductors job! And I spent all this time thinking they were just their to make sure we weren't distracted by being able to see the audience......
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-20 20:56
"Keeping time" is neither solely the conductor's or the performer's responsibility. Only when all keep time, with strong sense of shared pulse and subdivision, is great ensemble really possible.
So many appear to believe that rhythm is nebulous with fuzzy edges. It is not fuzzy at all...rhythm is concrete.
If I played an F# instead of an F and then responded: "at least I played an F(of some kind)!" this would be analogous to some interpretations of basic rhythms.
Instead of saying "dah daaaaah dah dah-dah dah" (as some do) you need to be able to say "1 2----- 4 1 + 2" so that not only is the rhythm clear but the exact coordinates of the notes are also clear.
You can keep guessing at rhythms or you can learn them. In the long run there are far less rhythms in music to learn than there are notes on the clarinet.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: KristinVanHorn
Date: 2008-06-20 23:19
"In the long run there are far less rhythms in music to learn than there are notes on the clarinet."
Hey I didn't realize that. Thanks!
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Author: DrH2O
Date: 2008-06-21 02:43
So how do you go about keeping time for 32nd notes? I know how to count 1 e and a for 16th notes but I sort of panic when 32nds come along! Do you just have to develop an internal pulse for all the subdivisions past 16ths?
Anne
Clarinet addict
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-21 03:40
Hello Anne,
There is no real verbiage for 32nds. I was thinking about this earlier after having explained that to one of my students. Here's what I suggested to them:
If you have a 4 beats of 32nds you could say:
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a
Which is recycling the 16th note verbiage at the 32nd note speed. Instead, I'm going to suggest to future students a minor modification so that there is no confusion as to where the significant downbeats are:
1 e + a T e + a 2 e + a T e + a 3 e + a T e + a 4 e + a T e + a
Ultimately however, it is a matter of understand that the proportional relationship between Wholes/halfs, Halfs/quarters, quarters/eighths, eighths/sixteenths, and sixteenths to thirtyseconds is the same and so 32nds are not really a new concept.
When all the black ink comes at you it's important NOT to freak out about it. The more you let your blood pressure rise the faster you will take the passage...compounding the problem.
The notes are only as fast as they are and no faster. If the 32nd note passage is faster than you are comfortable it is probably not because it is impossible to count but because you may not have yet achieved the technique to execute it.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-06-21 03:44)
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Author: Ronish
Date: 2008-06-21 06:17
The conductor in our band said "I don`t want to see any foot tapping" you can keep the beat by just moving your big toe in your shoe. Who am I to disagree she`s been to the Conservatoire of music here.
I like Tobin`s advice to use a metronome a lot in practicing. I rarely do and I must change.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2008-06-21 19:06
>So I take it then that foot tapping or body moving is definately not good? >I mean just do not do it?
No. I would take a lot of what has been posted here with a grain of salt. The styles of music that you described in your second post are ones where where body movement is frequently used by its top practitioners.
Foot tapping, properly done and applied, is a great asset to the learning process and a powerful diagnostic tool for a teacher. But it is a skill that has to be developed apart from your playing, or it will be a burden rather than a help. Here's how I approach with with students.
Step 1 - Keep time physically while listening to music. Relax and keep it natural. Tap your foot lightly and naturally when not operating a motor vehicle. (when driving, tap your thumb on the steering wheel) Just get used to picking up the pulse. (easy with most pop music)
Step 2 - Develop a binary motion in your tapping, that divides the beats exactly in half. Many people will develop this naturally as they try to keep time at slower tempos. A good exercise is to tap to a metronome at 60bpm, or while watching a quartz clock with the jerky second-hand motion. It's hard for most folks to sync with that unless they are subdividing the beat.
Step 3 - Use your tapping foot while studying formal rhythm. My folks use the Master Theory Workbook for this. Start off simple, and put the foot in charge. (i.e. Don't tap along to your playing/reciting--Play or recite along to your tapping. This is an important distinction)
Step 4 - Use your physical momentum to reinforce your subdividing and force yourself to move ahead rather than slowing down and gawking at a rhythm you don't understand. Then use the same subdivision to regulate yourself on longer notes, rather than rushing impatiently into the next note. Difficulty or ease in a passge can affect a player's perception of passing time. (one reason why students grouse about metronomes) This can help.
The secret to much of this is repetition, which Master Theory provides with multiple exercises in the same kinds of rhythm. But it does accomplish a few things.
1 - As with phonics in reading, musicians can often execute rhythms that they don't fully understand, but understanding will quickly follow once they're correctly executing them. This may apply well to the 'slurred' passages that you were talking about with the blues. Could you actually mean 'tied'?--as in rhythms which tie over to the downbeat before they start moving again?
2 - You learn to steadily make your way through passages that are uncomfortable to play, and drastically increase your fingering success as you stop sabotaging yourself with shaky tempo. (this may require more explanation than is appropriate for this thread)
I hope that the above helps to explain to you and the others why I advocate this. As you advance, your physicial timekeeping becomes more and more subtle, but physical timekeeping is here to stay in most popular styles. You may find yourself doing nothing more than shifting your weight, but generally speaking you are going to do SOMETHING to feel that downbeat, particularly in synocpated styles.
Here's where the 'don't tap' crowd does have a point. As you play more in conducted ensembles and chamber groups, you are entering situations where a conductor or a fellow chamber musician is within their rights to vary the pulse and you have to be sensitive enough and flexible enough to respond appropriately. To me, this is where much of that point of view kicks in.
But for the music you described, and the types of rhythmic difficulties you described, I don't see physical movement hurting you.
Allen Cole
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-06-22 20:17
Hello Allen,
It's good to know that with as much as we agree on that there is something upon which we disagree!
I think there is no distinction between keeping time based upon "popular" vs any other type of music.
I think there is an important distinction to create between those who move a body part to KEEP TIME vs those who move a body part because they are enjoying themselves and the music...the body movement is a subconscious and ultimately an expression of the time they have already in themselves.
Absolutely I agree we use our ears and understand complex rhythms long before we can play them...just as children are able to speak long before they can read. But they do need to learn how to read and spell as we need to count rhythm to be effective musicians.
In the most rhythmically complex areas I find that keeping still allows greater accuracy. Folks, I'm not saying that if you see me perform that I don't move...just that I don't move to count! Just as most of you tap your foot as you enjoy music but aren't actually counting in your head simultaneously.
Through ear training games I have first year students playing syncopated and sixteenth note rhythms (it's very easy because the ear is so strong!). The issue is not being able to repeat what you hear...it is learning to actually read rhythms. (My less than three year old niece can count well over 40...but she can't read it yet!)
A substantive difference in teaching styles...the time that Allen takes to outline and teach how the body should be used to keep time I spend teaching the students to internalize their rhythm. Obviously we both have great confidence in our methods.
Ultimately: as long as the musician can maintain a tempo, count and execute rhythms, understand metrical concepts, and be able to teach themselves rhythms they are not familiar with, then they are set.
There are many ways to achieve the same goal. Although I am personally confident (as Allen is) that our individual methods are essential I don't presume that either of our methods are universally correct.
James
PS Allen, your student did a fine job at the Workshop!
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2008-06-22 20:19)
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