 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Copland
Date: 2007-11-20 01:35
Hello all!
I'm currently a Sophomore in an upstate New York school, where I play Clarinet in the Wind Ensemble (highest level in our school) and Concert Band (Lowest level- I'm helping out there). I've been playing since Fourth grade, but only recently got serious about the clarinet and music in general.
Anyway, I've noticed that recently, I have been squeaking in the notes around the break (B and C, mainly). Also, it just overall feels like I will squeak if I try to play too loud in the notes slightly higher than that, like E and F (and it did actually happen earlier tonight in a concert!).
Equipment wise, I'm using Vandoren 3 reeds, a B45 Mouthpiece, a Rovner Eddie Daniels Ligature and a Buffet RC clarinet (I also occasionally play an old Evette by Buffet Crampon wood clarinet).
I'm definitely willing to get a new mouthpiece or reeds or whatever is necessary, or fix my embouchure if that is the issue.
The second part of my question is that, as I said, I've gotten into clarinet playing recently to the point where I play around 2 hours a day (between practicing and band). Because of this, the inside of my bottom lip-where the teeth touch the lip- has gotten extremely painful, to the point where it's hard to play. Also, if I use a mirror to look at this part of my lip, the blood vessels are very visible and red.
What should I do to try to help this? Am I biting down too hard, or should I lay off of playing a bit?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Post Edited (2007-11-20 01:40)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-20 01:48
As per the squeaks, I'd check to see if there's a leak in the clarinet. Try somone elses and have someone else try yours. Or see if your band teaher can check it out. I'd say that could be a reason.
As for the pain in the lip, a lot of people use a sort of 'guard' between their teeth and lip. It can basically be anything that you can stick on top of your teeth, and under your lip. One thing I used in the past was floral tape (at any florist, it's the tape used to tie them together). VERY cheap for lots of feet of it. I'd cut about a three inch strip, fold it over itself until it was about the size of my bottom teeth, then just place on my bottom teeth. As it gets wet with saliva it forms to your teeth. You can use it for a few days until it gets grungy.
Another thing I used (my favorite makeshift guard until i lost it) was simply a piece of plastic that I cut from dunkin donuts coffee cup lid. The curved part that "snaps" onto the lid. I just cut off a piece about the size of my bottom teeth and kept trimming till it fit and didn't hae any overly sharp edges.
Anything that's safe to keep in your mouth and thin enough to go between your teeth and lip will work. Cigarette paper, wax, pa part of a mouthguard (THIN piece), floral tape, etc.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-20 03:07
floral tape? interesting idea.
plastic cup lid ??
try the donut instead, it'll be more enjoyable.
cigarette paper is normally recommended
I would think on your clarinet that you have a leak too. as mentioned, play test someone elses and vice versa. then have a tech look/fix it up.
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Author: Copland
Date: 2007-11-20 11:13
Well, when using my other clarinet (the Evette), I still squeak around the break, and I also definitely feel like I'm going to squeak in the upper register (F and E).
Having said that, I guess it's possible that both of the horns have leaks, given the Evette is a recent acquisition and I haven't gotten it checked out yet. I have to take both clarinets into the shop (the RC has swollen tenons, and Evette is missing a bit padding), so I'll see what the repairman has to say.
Thanks for your quick help! I'll start searching for some sort of guard, maybe some floral tape. Or maybe I'll use it as an excuse to go to Dunkin Donuts!
Also, I have another question... how often should reeds be replaced? I never know how long to keep my reeds.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-20 14:28
Out of curiousity, does it squeak always? Or just sometimes. When you use a very 'light' touch on the keys, does it squeak or not play? Will it then play if you increase the pressure of you holding down the keys? have you tried playing the "one and one" Bb? (play a B up in the higher register, the B just above the staff, then place your right index finger down - it should result in a Bb coming out). Then try it with your right middle finger and ring finger. If it doesn't work, it MAY be a probably cause. Might not BE the problem, but it could be. There's a little pad tht goes down when you put your right index finger down that could affect any notes below it if it's too far out of adjustment.
If your clarinet doesn't play or it squeaks with a light touch but then plays ok if you're really putting pressure down on the keys, there's a greater chance it's a leaky pad. To help find which pad, have someone else around you put their finger on and press down whatever pads are supposed to be closed while you hold out a squeak or just try to blow air with a light touch. If one of those pads needs to be sealed, the other person's pressure may cause the clarinet to go from just air being blown through to the actual note you're trying to play. Then you've just found the main culprit.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-20 14:49
A V G analysis, Alexi, yes, the tight seating of the L J's top pad is very important and its coordination via the bridge mech's with the 1 and 1 pad on the U J must be precise [to be used]. Suggesting another possibility, a too-low positioning of the thumb rest Might cause an insecure covering of the right hand's ring finger's open tone hole, an early student's frequent problem, perhaps. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-11-20 20:58
About the squeaks: it is the dry season, and reeds warp in this weather. You should use some sort of humidity control reed case. Reedmate makes one, as well as Rico Reedvitalizer. When it's real dry like now, I use one of those cases plus a ziploc freezer bag. This keeps the reeds from drying out too much between playing, and holds the reeds flat.
Pads leaking are a possibility too, but I do have students whose instruments are working just fine, and they squeak. Usually changing to a new, unwarped reed solves the problem. Don't forget, your fingers are also pads, and can leak if not placed properly over the holes when going over the break. Look at your fingers in the mirror to make sure you are completely covering the toneholes.
How long can a reed last? Using a good reed case and alternating which reeds you play on (keep 4-8 ready to play, depending on how much playing you do), a reed can last anywhere from a week to 2 months, assuming it doesn't break or warp.
About your teeth/lip: I have heard of floral tape and wax, I like to use Ezo denture cushions. It's a gauze covered in wax, and can be found in pharmacies. Do try not to bite. The embouchure should be fairly firm, but get the top lip and the corners more involved, so it's not all the bottom lip doing the pressure.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2007-11-20 21:00
"If your lip hurts that much you are almost certainly biting too hard.
Don't bite! Putting something on your teeth will just mask that problem."
This is soo true. I have jagged lower teeth and have never had any pain. I should have gotten them fixed, but I'd rather spend money on my instruments and music. I have played upto four hours a day for weeks with no problems. :o)
I do however tend to jam the mouthpiece into my uppers for both sax and clarinet. I've never bought into the soft embouchure, but then I'm not a pro. Since this came on rather suddenly, I suspect you just need to take your horn to a good tech. My tech will often look at my instrument for free and then let me know what he recommends.
Good luck with this--it'd be nice to know how you choose to resolve the issue.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: Copland
Date: 2007-11-21 14:26
I had a feeling I might be biting too hard, and for a little while (around a week) I was trying the double lip method, but I have a really hard time keeping my clarinet from falling when playing an F (first space) or high C (the first C above the staff).
It's kind of hard to explain, but when I play those notes double lipped, the force from me holding down the key makes the clarinet go away from my body, and I can't figure out how to counter the force, given that there isn't really anything to grab onto on the front of the clarinet. Any suggestions?
Thanks a lot to everyone that's helped so far!
Now I have another question... I keep thinking of things that I've always wanted to ask my teachers but always forget!
How do you decide when to change reed strengths? This has always been a mystery to me.
Also, I have a collection of really crappy mouthpieces (two came with my Evette, one came with the RC and the B45 I bought), and I was just wondering what the difference is between different mouthpieces. This probably doesn't have a real easy answer, but maybe a website or something that talks about this would be awesome!
Like I said, I really appreciate all of your help!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-21 18:47
I just check a new reed strength every few months. Vandoren sells the V12 in packs of two so it's not too expensive. I've since found that I do best with a size four reed, and then I shave it down a little to balance it to my mouthpiece. But every few months I'll check a 4.5. But it's always been too hard to play and not as comfortable as the 4.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2007-11-21 18:59
Embouchure...hmmm?
A good embouchure is what works for you. It should enable full rich tone in all registers and at all dynamics. It should be flexible enough to provide a rich palate of tone colors. Given that, a few personal observations:
1. Many players use a reed that is too hard, limiting the range of tone colors, limiting dynamic range, and thinking a "dead" sound is a dark sound.
2. If you get indentations in your lower lip (or even cuts) you are biting the reed. Use a softer reed and more lip cushion.
3. Instead of thinking tight, pointy chin, hard taut lip, think of the embouchure as a rubber band surrounding the mouthpiece. The lower lip should be a soft cushion under the reed, not a hard tight surface.
4. The altissimo does not need more lip pressure, just more air support AND the proper placement of the lower lip on the reed. It does change; for example for altissimo e the lower lip needs to jut a smidgen, whereas for altissimo A, you need to bring it back a smidgen. Experience will show you exactly where.
Remember a good embouchure is what works for you. Many on this board will disagree with my statements above. I'll let them disagree. It works for me, and for many.
vJoe
(amateur)
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Author: vjoet
Date: 2007-11-21 19:38
PS: I got this tip from this board a couple years ago:
To determine if the reed is too hard for the mouthpiece place chalameux G (below the staff) very softly. If you hear air in addition to the tone, the reed is too hard.
vJoe
(amateur)
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Author: Copland
Date: 2007-11-22 13:26
Well, I think I might have found the issue. When I was practicing yesterday, I had to use the left hand mid-staff C, and this requires a lot of pressure to make it not squeak. Perhaps this is it...
Also, I was taking a look at my mouthpiece and I realized there are a lot of scratches on the place where the reed sits (unfortunately I'm not up on mouthpiece terminology). Does this affect playing at all?
So, I was practicing clarinet last night, and the inside of my lip was once again hurting (haven't gotten any guard yet), but I did try to loosen up my grip on the reed.
I also remembered something that seems fairly stupid to mention, but I'm afraid it might have further reaching consequences. When I use my Rovner ligature, I get a black mark on my chin. I know that it gives off this black stuff, because if I rub the edge of the ligature with my thumb or finger it makes a black mark. I know a couple other people with this ligature, and they don't seem to have this issue. Is this a sign that my embouchure is positioned wrong, or do I have a funky ligature, or something else?
Thanks!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-23 16:03
As per the left hand C, your clarinet needs to be adjusted. It shouldn't need any more pressure than any other key to play. So your clarinet needs to be looked over by a tech. It's probably something simple like the size of a cork that's keeping the lever too high when you press it down or something like that. But let the pro fixer-upper take a look at it.
As for the scratches, it may or may not affect the mouthpiece. All depends on how deep, where they are, etc. etc. And since none of us will be able to tell how well your mouthpiece played BEFORE the scratches, we won't be able to say if the csratches are negatively affecting it.
I don't know about the lig. I never got any marks at all (I also use rovners). Maybe someone else will know . . .
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-11-23 22:00
Hello. I just had this same squeak problem, and didn't think I'd make it through last Sunday's gig. Took it into the repair man and he replaced two pads and made some minor adjustments. Now it is just fine. $31.00 to save a lot of pain and agony!
About the lower lip problem, same thing going on here. I haven't tried the florist tape yet, but it should work okay. I was also thinking about having the dentist maybe make me a little plastic cover for those lower teeth that are sharp, and in my case crooked. My lip turns into hamburger if I practice too long and then I have to lay off for a day or two.
Good luck with your problems.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-23 22:17
The dentist making a plastic cover solution is one that's used by a few on this board. I don't have a cover nor have I used one for the past year and few months and I've been ok by and large, but I think I'm going to start using a tooth cover anyway. I know some people say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but I always felt I had a little better control with a hard plastic cover. Maybe cause I know EXACTLY how much pressure I'd be putting on the reed plus it's less uncomfortable in general (after hours of playing)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Copland
Date: 2007-11-27 22:06
Hey guys, I've got another question...
I had been tonguing (until very recently) by moving my tongue to the top of my mouth behind my front two teeth, where it makes no connection with the reed and effectively acts as an air valve. However, I was recently told by my private teacher that the tip of my tongue should be physically touching the reed, which sounds a lot more smooth to me (and him, because he had been saying that my tonguing had a violent attack).
But, now I'm a bit confused. Back in the day (I guess considering my age I can't really say that, but I mean when I was first learning clarinet) we were taught about saying 'ta' to tongue. So, I did 'ta', which is the whole air-valve thing. When I tongue using the tip of my tongue just below the tip of the reed (like I was recently instructed to do), it seems more like a 'tha'. Is this correct?
Also, I'd just like to repose my question about the ligature. If anyone out there has a Rovner Eddie Daniels, could you try rubbing your finger on the top to see if any black marks come of? I just want to know if it's my ligature being weird or if it's my embouchure that's a little funky and touching this part of the ligature.
I feel like I say "thanks!" or something to that effect at the end of every post, but I really do appreciate everyone's help. My experience on this board has truly been awesome.
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Author: felix
Date: 2008-01-13 00:08
Quote:
I've gotten into clarinet playing recently to the point where I play around 2 hours a day (between practicing and band). Because of this, the inside of my bottom lip-where the teeth touch the lip- has gotten extremely painful, to the point where it's hard to play. Also, if I use a mirror to look at this part of my lip, the blood vessels are very visible and red.
This may sound drastic. I did it, and never looked back. Take your clarinet with you the next time you visit the dentist for a routine cleaning. Tell him what's happening and ask if he could take the edge off your lower front teeth. My doc said "no prob" and immediately reached for his little grinder and made a quick pass for a bit of a chamfer. No extra charge, and what a difference! Warning, don't round off too much, or you won't be able to bite into a slice of pizza with any authority! 
Unrelated:
I'm a newbie, sort of, and just joined the forum. I play sax; but unlike most sax players, I didn't learn clarinet first. I see that sax players, who aspire to be "woodwind" players, must double on clarinet, so I've been trying to learn. This has been a love/hate saga that's been going on for many years. I've formally sworn off clarinet as "unlearnable" at least 4 times, with the last being two years ago. Twice, I even went so far as to sell the instrument, so I wouldn't be tempted to resume. I've always wound up buying another one. As of now, I have two. As of a month ago, I've resumed with a vengeance. Hey, at the very least, it's strengthened my embouchure. I've already had to jump up one full size on my sax reeds.
So, that's enough about me for now.
Hello!
John
Post Edited (2008-01-13 00:24)
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Author: MJSmith
Date: 2008-01-13 02:14
Thanks to a former clarinet teacher of mine (Dr. Janet Averett)
I use Ezo Denture Cushions (the Pink Box)... They come 24 or so together, and they look like a horse shoe. What I do is I cut one of the Ezo pieces into 4ths, and I use one of them over that area of my bottom teeth. If it still hurts, you can double, and use 2 of those 4ths (one on top of the other) for more cushion.
You can use one setup for about 2-3 practice sessions, sometimes more, and then you just make another one.
Wet the Ezo (both of them if you are using 2) by putting it in your mouth like you would soak your reed--that is how you will get it wet so it can fold over your teeth.
I use this little invention off and on. But I have developed a small calice in my lower lip, so when I don't use the Ezo, I really dont get much pain.
You can find these at Walgreens, Longs, Wal-Mart, etc...
Here is a picture of the box. It is important you buy the pink box, as that one molds as you would form a piece of paper or tape over your teeth.
http://www.amazon.com/Ezo-Denture-Cushions-Lower-Heavy/dp/B000Q660AC
California State University, Fresno
B.A., Music Education - (c/o 2008)
Post Edited (2008-01-13 02:16)
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Author: MJSmith
Date: 2008-01-13 02:20
Also, try not to use the Ezo as a crutch. I find that I sound a lot better with less stuff in my mouth (i.e. the Ezo). Some of my students have said they start to squeek sometimes with the Ezo... Try out different things.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-01-14 12:15
Hi Copland, just found your thread.
1. Biting: Vandoren '3' on a B45 is fairly hard work - you could try a 2.5. Biting is one of the things we tend to do unconsciously to tame a reed that's too hard.
2. Changing reed strengths: Definitely worth trying random reeds from time to time. If the pp tends to be breathy unless you try really hard, then the reed's probably a bit hard. A too-soft reed makes the tone fat and lazy and the tuning iffy.
3. Support: this (loosely!) means blowing from right down in your middle.
4. Ligature on chin: never had that! Maybe your clarinet is a wee bit close to your body?
5. Tonguing: Yes, touch the reed very lightly. 'Ta', or 'Da', or 'Na' can work. Don't go ga ga. :-)
6. Leaks: cause squeaks. Take the instrument apart. Hold the upper joint with all fingers down and plug the bottom end with your free hand. Blow into it; the air shouldn't come out. Repeat with lower joint (swapping hands!)
7. When to change a reed: when it becomes too soft, or it gets a split. Signs of old reeds: little nicks in the tip; discoloration (pale tip, grubby vamp); a square mark on the back from the mouthpiece window.
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