 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-24 16:00
I'm just curious. Are there any symptoms? or tests that would reveal a warped mouthpiece?
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-07-24 16:05
First of all, look at it. If it's at a 90 degree angle, then you might be in trouble :-)
No, seriously, I know there's a bunch of different ways but the one I've learned is to place a drop of water on a plate of glass - carefully put the mouthpiece table flat on the water. Look on the back of the glass - do you see air bubbles? You can carefully tip the mouthpiece to the bend of the rails - are they even? I think you get the point of using the water, try it and find out.
Also, is there anything about your reeds that you notice happen every time? (ex: Do you ALWAYS need to move your reed to the left, or it doesn't play? That's no good)
CA
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-24 16:14
I will try that out. Recently I have had to apply more overall pressure to the mouthpiece to achieve the sound I want, otherwise I get a very strange sensation. It feels like the reed begins to vibrate under my lip and creates a very harsh addition to the sound as I increase air -pressure especially on the left side. I can counteract this by applying more pressure but again, I didn't have to do this before.
It is so difficult to try to explain these kind of things! =S.... now to find a piece of glass!
Any more help/tests/symptoms would be GREATLY appreciated =D
thanks
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-07-24 16:41
That's interesting...I would make the same assumption from what you're experiencing.
I played on the same mouthpiece for a very long time (Gigliotti 2) and didn't see any problem with it until an instructor helped me go mouthpiece hunting, which pretty much opened my eyes - wow my last mouthpiece was warped, or something, because suddenly I could make so many more reeds play, I could play easier, all that stuff. Of course, one could argue that since the fight for a new mouthpiece is never ending, you can say that about every progressively better mouthpiece...
CA
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-24 16:52
Hi again, just did the experiment on a small piece of table glass between two chairs. Initially i found the right side rail to fill up with water all 3 times, which would fit what I was describing. I then did the experiment with some other mouthpieces and saw variations. with others Sometimes it was left, sometimes right.
1 out of the 4 times my M13 filled up on the left faster
Is there any other test? although this seemed to work quite well
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-24 17:02
are your problems recient or has it always been this way? have you done anything reciently that would cause the rubber to warp (ie. left it in a hot car, dropped it, etc.)?
In my experience, the mouthpiece doesn't just change on it's own.
Post Edited (2007-07-24 17:04)
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-07-24 17:19
Just one quick thought that I want to be sure of - Your glass, is it thick? When you said between two chairs I immediately pictured in my head a large sheet of glass bending ever so slightly over the gap. Make sure your glass is completely flat. (Just a concern, I'm sure you're smart enough to figure this out yourself.) Although from what you say you were relatively successful in your findings.
CA
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-24 17:27
"the mouthpiece doesn't just change on it's own." A week ago someone moved my clarinet and I don't know what he did but the right hand side of the mouthpiece had a bit of a bump on it...small... I don't think that is the cause of my problems....unless it changed the entire shape of the mouthpiece. I might have left it in the sun by accident....dunno
it is thick yes, =D about 1/4 inch ...... it may still be possible the glass is not 100% flat itself....or one chair was higher than the other. I will try again.
Does anyone know any other tests?
Post Edited (2007-07-24 17:27)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-07-24 22:37
Have a good mouthpiece guy check it out.
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-25 04:53
Unfortunately thats impossible in Kyrgyzstan at the moment
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2007-07-25 14:39
As a mouthpiece refacer, I ask people if they are having more problems finding reeds; if they can get more reeds to work on their back-up mouthpiece if they are having trouble slurring to the third register; if they are having problems with chirping/squeeking; and how long they have played their current #1 mouthpiece. If a mouthpiece is extremely worn, you can actually see a shiny spot where the reed and mouthpiece come together. If you can see a bump on the facing with the naked eye, it is probably affecting the way the mouthpiece plays.
The only problem with asking the first question is that whenever there's a bad run of cane, mouthpieces start showing up in my mailbox for no good reason!
Chris
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-07-25 15:31
Try placing the reed table of your mouthpiece on the glass and then sliding a sheet of paper between the glass and the mouthpiece facing. If the rails are evenly curved, the paper will stop with its edge straight across the mouthpiece --perpendicular to the centerline of the mouthpiece --not skewed.
Try it with pieces of card stock of various thicknesses to check all along the rails. You can stack cards and paper to make various thicknesses.
If you have a set of feeler gages, you can use them.
Bob Phillips
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-07-25 16:04
The Morgan Mouthpiece Measuring Kit is useful for this investigation, and others involving the facing. I use it on all trial mpcs, for example. Mine cost $80, years ago.
richard smith
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-26 00:03
the Morgan Kit is hard to come by these days. I called them 3 years ago and asked for a kit and a mouthpiece as soon as they had one. I gave them my billing info, but I was never billed and they never contacted me. Calling back 6months later was just the same speech about mouthpieces and the measuring kit.
one more test- put your assmbled mouthpiece on yout palm and suck the air out. If the reed stays closed you are usually in good shape.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-07-26 03:52
Oh, and another test.
Using a wet Legere (or other nearly transparent) reed, cover the cork end of the mouthpiece, suck the reed closed, and look at for bubbles being pulled into the vacuum between the reed and the table.
Bob Phillips
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-07-26 04:12
IMHO, I wouldn't trust the reed suction as much, simply because bad reeds are another cause of a bad seal. I would use that test as a test for a decent reed, really. But who knows? I'd still try it, and if anything I can see it being accurate if you try it with a variety of reeds with the same result.
CA
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-07-26 08:47
They do warp - I know cos I had one that had changed over the years. And I know that because I tried a new one of the same model that was completely different. So I measured them and found the old one had become longer and more closed.
I used feeler gauges on a flat surface (I expect a thick piece of glass would do). Measuring facing length is tricky as even the thinnest gauge (50um = 2 thou in my set) will stop short of the 'true' start point.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-26 10:19
Bassie- it is just as easy to find variation on 2 new mouthpieces of the same model.
I bought a bunch of NEW Selmers (2 each of 4 models) last year and found between 10-25% variation in the length of any 2 of the same model. I can have no idea what the Selmer measurements 'should be'.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-07-26 15:22
skygardener - Measurement of length (and presumably manufacture) is not easy, but it was well off, and it wasn't playing at all how I remembered it. Tip opening was at least 0.1mm too close (that's 110 instead of 120). There appeared to be wear (distinct polishing) around the start of the table where the reed lifts off.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-26 15:45
I am not saying it didn't change from the time you bought it, but just buying a new one to refer to as a 'control' is not very accurate with mass produced mouthpieces.
Also, measurement of the curve is very easy if you have the right tools.
Post Edited (2007-07-26 16:02)
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Author: kev182
Date: 2007-07-26 18:54
it doesnt really make sense that the older mouthpiece is more closed....unless in seriously mistaken..
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-07-27 08:44
I call 'em as I sees 'em.
But you're right, there are a number of explanations for the observed phenomena. Mouthpieces obviously vary, memories are fallible and no mechanism for distortion is obvious.
I disagree on the 'easy' measurement of facing length. Measuring points on a curve is clearly trivial - but manufacturers quote a 'length' which presumably requires a feeler gauge of zero thickness. If my facing had a high polish I'd put it on an optical flat and go looking for Newton's rings - but as it is, surely one has to extrapolate from the feeler gauge measurements to get the true length. Unless I misunderstand the industry definition of length.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-27 11:03
I say 'length' to mean the point that the thinnest feeler guage reaches. And since most mouthpiece people use this feeler guage method, it is a consistant way to refer to 'length' with eachother- we are all on the same page with it.
Why not the true '0 point'? There is no way for me to find it. If I wanted to, I could guess at a 'most likely point of 0' with an equation.
I work with the numbers I have and those I can get. I can't do anything to worry about a point that is impossible to find without exceptionally expesive equippment.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-07-27 15:12
Bassie,
when you're feeling flush, how about doing your quality control inspection on a random assortment of Vandoren mouthpieces. I've had a couple pairs of then at the same time and found them to be remarkably consistent in their playing characteristics. They compare favorably (in my ignorance of nuance) to pairs of handmade mouthpieces from some of the "good guys" in the refacing industry.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-07-30 11:10
Bob,
Actually I do have two B45 dots in Original and Profile 88 flavours. I play the 88 cos I feel closer to the sound (whatever that might mean!!), but really they're pretty much indistinguishable. I haven't bothered trying to measure them (I took the other pieces into work and put them on the calibrated granite block...)
Reading round some other threads here, I'm sure owners of original B45's the world over would have some words on the subject of consistency... anyone? :-)
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