 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spiderbelle
Date: 2006-05-07 06:25
I bought a Buffet (Bb) off of ebay a few years ago for maybe around $70. The top and bottom joints of the clarinet looks to be in great shape -- no cracks! The barrel is cracked beyond use and the bell has a repaired chip.
The clarinet came with a wooden mouthpiece that I think is original -- it has a very worn, barely recognizable Buffet logo on it -- haven't played on it, but the tip and rail have no visible wear.
I bought it intending to use it as an 'experiment' horn, as I learn how to overhaul clarinets, but now (as I am finally getting around to working on it), I am wondering if it would be worth it to have it professionally overhauled. Maybe I should just get an old Vito or Bundy and tinker with that instead of this old old old Buffet.
I don't know if it is HP or LP -- no designation on the clarinet anywhere. All I have done to it so far is remove the keys (they are in gross shape -- very tarnished and gunky -- I think they are/were nickel plated) and clean/oil the wood.
Any thoughts?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-05-07 13:07
Whether it is LP or HP should be obvious from the length. HP is the better part of a semitone higher. But it is unlikely to be exactly A=440, a pitch that was only standardised in the 1920s/1930s.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-05-07 14:49
Spiderbelle -
Put the instrument together, or, if it won't fit, lay the joints out on a table. Then put your contemporary instrument next to it. If the total lengths are about the same, the 1899 clarinet is at low pitch. If it's over 1/2" shorter, it's at high pitch.
The keys are almost certainly "German silver," which, for me, have just the right amount of surface friction. They didn't plate the keys back then.
I got a 1908 Bb/A pair off eBay that had been in a closet for 90 years. Peter Spriggs restored them to like-new condition, and they're excellent instruments. The tone is less aggressive than newer instruments, but sweeter -- perfect for chamber music.
Kalmen Opperman made me new barrels. He said for the old instruments, the barrel has to have a different size and taper. I'm sure that the barrel makers here could make you one that would work.
I'd say at least send it to someone to check for cracks that open up when the wood gets some moisture into it. If the instrument is not too badly worn (and, of course, if it's at low pitch), it could be worth professional restoration.
At any rate, I think it would be better to start out on a Vito or Bundy, if only for the practice.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-05-07 17:40
There is, of course, a difference between value in "use" and resale value. To most of the world, the clarinet you bought is about as desirable as an old Vito or Bundy. That's why it only brought seventy bucks in a worldwide auction, attended by dealers as well as hobbyists. I think it unlikely that you will be able to recover in a future sale the cost of a professional restoration. I also doubt that, if you have it fully restored, you will prefer it to a modern clarinet. On the other hand, it can provide you considerable tinkering value. You've already taken the instrument apart and cleaned and oiled the wood. As long as you are reasonably careful and adopt the attitude of "first do no harm," I see no reason why you shouldn't clean, polish and oil the keys, rods and screws; replace the tenon and key corks (try to use the same thickness of cork as the original); check the springs (if any are bad, you can decide whether you want to attempt their replacement or leave the relatively low-cost job to a professional), and replace the pads (allow plenty of time, be patient, do each one individually and make sure it seats well before you move on to the next one).
When you get it all together, if it doesn't play as well as you think it should, or you find an unexpected problem, then take it to a repair shop. Chances are they won't have to do much to finish it off and you'll save a bundle. The key is patience.
BTW, even if the barrel is completely split from top to bottom, you can probably repair the crack with superglue.
Obviously, I have a different attitude about these old instruments than Ken does. But ask yourself, how many working professionals are playing/seeking these clarinets as their day-to-day instrument?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: spiderbelle
Date: 2006-05-07 18:18
Thanks for the input so far, everyone.
I am not seeking to use this as a day-to-day instrument. I already have a great R-13 that is less than 10 years old. I have an interest in old instrument, particularly old clarinets, which is why I got this 1899 Buffet. I don't want to resell it. And I am not a working professional either -- just an amateur player with a lot of interest.
I guess I am just wondering if it would be worth it (to me, not for its resale value) to get it cleaned up professionally, and use it as a back-up instrument. More curiosity than anything. I have done searches on old clarinets and I have found several people (like Ken) who have clarinets from the early 1900s that are not only playable, but also functional in a modern ensemble. Honestly, I was thinking that if I could get the clarinet in a working condition, I would let my sister use it in her HS band (she is not a serious clarinetist in the least, but her current clarinet is not great).
Maybe I will go ahead with my original intent to clean up some of it, and then send it to a professional for the stuff I can't do. Which brings me to my next query -- it is really really hard to clean those keys. I don't think this clarinet was touched in many decades since there is so much grime accumulated on the metal. I have used a silver polish on some keys, which have cleaned up very nicely, but it took a lot of old rags and a lot of buffing. Is there a solution that I can soak the keys in that would help to remove the thick coat of gunk? I've done several searches on polishing tarnished keys, but I haven't found anything so far relating to cleaning REALLY dirty keys.
Thanks again!
Post Edited (2006-05-07 18:20)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-07 18:47
Not as old as your Buffet, but my 1962 R13 Eb clarinet had a cracked bell (in two places at the socket) and the original barrel was split all the way down.
The bell was easy enough to sort out as I ran thi superglue into the cracks, papered and polished it up and once the socket ring was put back on this held it all tight.
The same with the barrel, but I pinned the crack as well - there was little or no margin for error due to the fact the barrel bore is short, so drilling the hole for the pin (at an angle) without it entering the lower socket from the inside was a matter of luck and careful judgement. I checked the depth of the drill constantly to be sure it was about equal both sides of the crack.
But once it was done and the pin was in place the rings were fitted (having been made smaller on the inside diameter by having them silver plated) it's all being held tight by them.
The unplated keywork was scratched and badly tarnished as this was a marching band instrument and probably left damp when packed away, and there are still some lyre scratches in the bell as well.
I had it all silver plated by the company that does Buffet's plating and key castings, and they did an excellent job of it. Well worth the extra cost of plating and the longer wait for that.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-05-07 23:03
As I said, the older Buffet keys were not plated and were made of German silver, an alloy of alloy of copper, nickel and zinc (containing no silver). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_silver.
It takes a good polish, though not as bright as silver or as glaring and smooth as nickel.
Repair shops usually polish keys with jeweler's rouge on a buffing wheel, which takes time, several grades of rouge and considerable hand strength to hold the small keys against the spinning wheel. With heavy tarnish, it would take a lot of time to polish by hand.
Perhaps The Doctor and the repair techs here could let us know what works best.
Ken Shaw
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Author: spiderbelle
Date: 2006-05-07 23:52
Sorry Ken -- I guess I should have said that I have a METAL polish. It's for silver, gold, stainless steel, etc -- an all-purpose polish. Thank you for the info about German silver, though. I wasn't ignoring the advice in your first response! :-)
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-05-10 15:17
Two comments:
Go to a motorcycle shop and buy a tube of Simichrome polish. That does the trick on really nasty keys because it has chemical cleaners and *very* mild abrasive. If you have some old flannel rags, use those. It will take a little time, but you'll be amazed at what you can do.
Buy a "plastic" Buffet Evette or a Vito for your practice rebuild instrument. They are plentiful, cheap, usually come apart without days of applying penetrating oil, and you can donate the finished product to a local elementary school.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-05-10 15:32
...or keep it for playing on those less than desireable outdoor concerts that inevitably crop up in less than desireable conditions where it's criminal to use any instrument, and not just wooden instruments.
If this is the case, make sure there's plenty of play between pillars (especially the longer keys - LH F/C lever, RH low E/B and F#/C# keys and the ring keys) so they don't all bind up solid when it's cold.
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-05-10 15:47
...or keep it for playing on those less than desireable outdoor concerts that inevitably crop up in less than desireable conditions where it's criminal to use any instrument, and not just wooden instruments.
Yeah, good idea, but she's probably going to catch the bug and end up with a room full of various instruments for her own use. I like the idea of investing in future talent and try to donate one instrument a year to either a band program or a young musician who really shows a love for what they are doing.
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Author: spiderbelle
Date: 2006-05-14 03:10
Just wanted to give an update -- I have hand-polished all of the keys and now they look really nice! Took a lot of polish and a lot of time (and a lot of now-black rags). The keys are mostly shiny, and I plan to re-polish them when I repad the clarinet. I reassembled the clarinet and it looks completely different than it did when I got it. (So far, it's all cosmetic changes only.) I also ordered some repair supplies and they should arrive this week. I'm ready to go!
corks&pads has me pegged -- I have "caught the bug." I started learning instrument repair when I was in high school, sneaking into the 'instrument graveyard' where old clarinets went to die. I taught myself how to do tenon corks and replace pads. My band director was irritated when he thought that I was just screwing around in there -- but soon I was doing the emergency repairs for my clarinet section, and I even made about 4-5 "working" clarinets out of the jumble of parts in the instrument repair room. Note: Again, I was self-taught at this point -- I didn't know about seating the pad for optimum sound/intonation. However, it was functional enough to amaze the local band shop's road guy, who normally did those repairs, and he gave me some pointers to do it even better. (It's always good to be friends with the repair guy -- he gave me tons of free reeds and other promo goodies that the shop got for free!)
I took an instrument repair course in college and loved it. Now I am getting back into it, I guess. I really like the idea of donating a cleaned-up student clarinet to a local school each year! I will be starting community band rehearsals this week, and I will be able to meet the HS band director and the instrument repairperson for the university in town. I hope to learn some more about clarinet repair and maybe even help out the HS during marching season with the inevitable emergency repairs. I'm not really looking to do this for a career -- in fact, I will be starting graduate work this fall in political science -- but it's something that I've loved doing on the side for about 10 years now.
I have done a lot of searching and reading on this board about DIY clarinet repair, and I completely understand why lots of people advise others to forego self-repair and take thy instrument to a shop. Clarinet repair sounds like a lot of fun until you realize how hard it is! However, I am honestly interested in the mechanics of the clarinet and I want to learn how to do good repairs, even if they aren't pro level. I understand that it is difficult, time consuming, frustrating, and also expensive (at least initially). I've poked myself with needle springs more times than I can count, I've lost screws, I've bent keys accidentally, etc. Everyone who repairs instruments has to start somewhere, and that's how I view my 'learning journey.'
Now I am waxing philosophical . . . I just wanted to post an update, and I ended up writing a thesis! :-)
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Author: corks&pads
Date: 2006-05-14 15:42
Spider - If you'd like, drop me an e-mail. I can share some tips and resources with you.
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