 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetgirl09
Date: 2006-03-15 17:59
Hello,
I am going to purchase a Vandoren M15 mouthpiece (I prefer closed-tipped mouthpieces), and I was under the assumption that the M15 was a "13 Series mouthpiece". I have heard that the M15 (13 series) plays flat in the clarion register. I haven't even heard of the M15 being a NON 13 series mouthpiece (or a non 13 series ever made).
Could anyone explain this to me? I've done many searches here, and all over the internet concerning this issue, but have had no luck. I couldn't find any non 13 series M15's.
I was just wondering if anyone has anymore information about the "Non 13 Series M15".
Thank you.
__________________________________________________________
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Music is a sory told from your soul; a story of passion, of life. Share your story.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-15 18:33
I and my teacher, Chip Phillips --the principle with the Spokane Symphony-- have been messing around with 13 and non-13 series Vandoren mouthpieces on Buffet clarinets.
His preferred mouthpiece is the Vandoren M30 (it has a very long lay), and he's "talked me into" playing one as well. Mine is an M30, series 13 with the "88" beak shape. His is also a series 13, but I don't know about the 88 beak.
He had 4 non-13 M30s on his desk. He was searching for a back-up to his primary mouthpiece. He found that the non-13s play terribly out of tune on his Buffet R13 Bb and A clarinets. They tune to A440 because of a different bore/chamber volume than the -13 series. They also fouled up the internal tuning of idividual notes in the instruments.
Chips conclusion: the non-13s are useless on a Buffet.
For my part, my '61 vintage R16-1/2 (Full Boehm version of the R13) is terribly out of tune. It has the typical problems of flat long chalumeau notes, wide 12ths and sharp throat tones. Oddly, the mid-clarion is flat. I have more work to do with barrels and tone holes.
I's say that if you're playing a Buffet, you should choose a -13 series Vandoren. On the other hand, you could help us all understand things better if you were to try and compare non-13s with 13-s.
Thanks, and good luck.
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-15 19:07
Egads, Bob! If any of my no-name el-cheapo clarinets played as out-of-tune as your prestigious Buffet, I'd fire them (where's Donald Trump?). Perhaps it's asking to much of any mouthpiece to expect it to fix such a large and diverse collection of intonation problems?
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Author: clarinetgirl09
Date: 2006-03-15 19:27
Thank you. I do play on a Buffet R-13 (by the way, when testing this horn intonation-wise, it's incredible. From low E to Altissimo C, it's dead on 99% of the time, and the tendencies are right on, but easily adjusted with very little change (and natural, as well) of the embouchure).
I've been debating between the M13 Lyre, M15, and M30 mouthpieces for the past couple of days (I'm ordering tomorrow).
A college clarinet professor told me that he really likes his M13 Lyre, but I was attracted to it because it has a closed tip.
The M15 I want to try out of my own choice (I keep going back to it) because I've listened to people say that it's incredibly easy to play on (harder reeds don't really give me any problems on my current mouthpiece, a Pomarico Emerald M Crystal mouthpiece. The tip is approximately 1.02 mm). But during weather changes that occur constantly in SW Oklahoma, my asthma really starts to hinder me, and my Pomarico is particularly picky about reeds. I'm using V12 4s on it.
I know another clarinet professor at one of Oklahoma's colleges and I had a lesson together. He asked me if I would like to take lessons from him, but I was AMAZED that he had a Vandoren M30 mouthpiece. He reccomended it to me. From the first time I heard him, I immediately fell in love with his sound. But it has a more open tip than what I like. I thought that it was similar to the B40, but with easier playing characteristics.
But I was concerned about the 13 series because the intonation characteristics of my R-13 are incredible, I didn't know if changing the mouthpiece would COMPLETELY throw off the intonation patterns. I'm happy with my set up right now, but I do need a back up mouthpiece better than my Hite Premeier (I had one before this one, but it chipped. And this one isn't all that great), and my Gigliotti #4 facing mouthpiece (I believe it's almost asymmetrically aligned because the rails are completely off, the window is screwed up, the curve is way too short, and it's way too resistant even with a shaved V12 3 1/2 reed (I can' t go to a softer strength from that; I can't stand a bright sound).
But I'm in kind a hurry for my back up mouthpiece because of an Honor Band clinic coming up, where I'm first chair (so I sit on the edge), and I'm concerned that careless people with big cases will damage my crystal mouthpiece. And it's always nice to have a reliable back up.
Thank you for all of your input!
__________________________________________________________
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Music is a sory told from your soul; a story of passion, of life. Share your story.
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Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2006-03-15 19:51
You will have to try it to see what happens with tuning. I have been using an M13 and have tried several M15s and found them to bring everything a little flat, not just one register or specific pitches. I like that because I tune sharp on my own. I am still using the M13 that I picked out from 6 M13s and 4 M15s on my back up E12MM mainly for that reason. I would suspect that a M15-13 will have the same effect on your R13, but wild changes in intonation would suprise me.
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-03-15 19:58
Hey Bob,
Just wondering about your results. The 13 Series is a relatively new concept. So prior to the "American Pitch" series, what were the users of Vandoren mouthpieces doing to stay in tune?
Also, Pomarico and the "Buffet stock" (of all things) are much higher pitch mouthpieces than many of the others coming into vogue more recently to include the 13 Series. I wonder if we are all just getting used to "squeezing" and (God forbid) biting our way to pitch?
.............more confused than ever,
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-15 20:02
I wouldn't mind trying a non-13 Series M15 as I'm having to work very hard to keep the pitch up.
I was using a 5RV Lyre before and played sharp on this on my Selmer Series 9 full Boehms, using the standard 67mm barrel - even with the 68mm barrel I could still lip it up to 444Hz, but with the 13 Series M15 it's hard work but plays and sounds great.
I might take 1mm off the shoulder and tenon of the mouthpiece to help things.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-16 01:20
Yes, Dave, I'm considering "firing" my faithful, old companion, Boofy.
She's an F-prefix serial number (French/Euorpean), which means that she was intended to play A = 442. I completly spaced on that when I wrote my summary of my teacher's deliberations on the non-13 M30s.
I bought the R16-1/2 inyouthful ignorance. I wanted the extra keys, and the music shop ordered it. Who knew that it was tuned for 442? It came with a gauge (a strip of heavy paper) that was supposed to tell the user if a candidate mouthpiece had the right chamber length.
The evaluation of the non-13 M30s I reported is the result of my teacher's work with HIS R13s, not my R16-1/2.
It could be that she's just not comfortable being forced down to A = 440.
Despite all my attempts, I continually come back to using my articualte G#, forked Bb/Eb and the left hand Eb key. If my guard is down when I come to a note sequence that can use the full Boehm keywork, my fingers automatically grab for them.
SIGH, I wonder if an Amati full Boehm can be found that plays in tune.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2006-03-16 03:40
clarinetgirl09,
I don't knwo where you live, but if there is a decent local shop, save yourself some shipping money and go try the mouthpiees there it will give you a good sense of what they feel. I have always been on the sharp sid and the 13 series have helped, but I can't say they are significantly lower pitched than my other mouthpieces. Over the years I have played many VD. I think I started with a 5RV, then had a selmer, then a Buffet (bad bad choice), then a B45, then an M15(13), M13 Lyre.
The M15 is a fine mouthpiece, but it has a very long facing, if you are used to playing short facings then it might not be the best thing for you. 13 or non-13?
I like the sound of the 13 series better, don't ask me why I just do.
-S
PS: Whatever made the Oklahoma teacher sound great was not his mouthpiece, it was him!
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-16 05:30
"he 13 series have helped, but I can't say they are significantly lower pitched than my other mouthpieces."
While for a me a 13 series Vandoren is the only mouthpiece I could't use at all because it plays so flat! I had much better luck with the non 13 series Vandorens, but, my clarinet is not French and not something Vandoren tries to match whern they make their mouthpieces.
"It has the typical problems of flat long chalumeau notes, wide 12ths and sharp throat tones."
Even you say "typical problems". I've never played a clarinet that didn't have these problems. The question is only how sharp/flat those notes are.
To quote clarinet and mouthpiece maker Peter Eaton (I think I posted this quote before): "The suggestion from some makers that mouthpieces or clarinets have a fixed absolute pitch is unrealistic. A clarinet/mouthpiece/reed combination does not have a precise pitch until a player combines with them, and the pitch resulting from a particular set-up can vary by a surprisingly large degree, depending on who is playing it."
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2006-03-16 13:17
I play a 51 year old Selmer Signet Special (for sentimental reasons).
I've tried M13, M13 Lyre, M14, M15(13), M15, and M30.
I also have two Greg Smiths, one Richard Hawkins, one wooden Lelandais, and a host of others.
The Lelandais plays the best, but I'm so afraid that I'll mess it up, that it resides in it's see through case most of the time.
The Smiths are good, and all the above Vandorens, but the M30, work well for me, but I keep returning to the M15.
The M15(13) plays a tad flatter than the M15, so I use the M15 so I can cover situations where the group tunes a little sharp. The M15(13) will get me to 440, but only with the barrel all the way in.
Try several, they all play slightly different. After I buy one, I flatten the table.
I won't attempt messing with facing curves, but I do check the table and if it's off, I flatten it on a piece of ground glass.
Base your mouthpiece choices on what works well for you, and not neccesarily on what works well for a friend or a teacher (although that might be a good place to start your quest).
Post Edited (2006-03-16 17:32)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-16 14:07
I've turned down the tenon and shoulder of my 13 series M15 by 1.5mm, and this has made a considerable difference in terms of intonation (now being much easier to play at 440Hz and above), and preserved the sound.
It's much easier to get a new mouthpiece (if things took a wrong turn) than a replacement 67mm and 68mm barrel for a set of Series 9 clarinets, so I've taken this route.
I'll be doing some pit work in early April, so the fear of playing flat has now gone. I won't have to struggle anymore.
Just to add that this has now given me the opportunity to use this mouthpiece in every situation, before I was using a Selmer C85 for big band work which gave more flexibility and the M15 solely for orchestral and chamber work - now I can stick with the M15 for everything.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-03-16 14:28)
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