 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-04-27 23:59
I was contemplating something about my embouchure and, well, trying to figure something out: upon meeting a possible future college clarinet teacher, he suggested I "take more mouthpiece" and informed me that the mouth is asymmetrical (the bottom part of the jaw being further down than the top). I have been working on finding "the spot", since he said going to far down will cause squeaks and inability to control notes, whereas being to far up stifles the sound and tends to make the clarinet out of tune. I have moved my jaw down and think I may have found the spot, and it is very far down. however, despite the different feeling, I have found that my overall sound is fuller, I can produce a louder sound (and still play softly), and in tuning I found that taking more mouthpiece made me less sharp, if not well in tune. (or is it "better intonation"? I guess both...) anyway, my question is, why? is it because I have left more room for the reed to vibrate? or perhaps the change in jaw structure around the mouthpiece has changed the weight placement of my lip muscles and has therefore removed some of the pressure I was adhearing to the top, and thus not allowing me to bite? and perhaps taking more mouthpiece has adjusted my mouth so that I cant really physically apply pressure there? I was hoping someone could help me just to understand why taking more mouthpiece (but not too much) helps produce a fuller, more in tune, and greater sound?
-Lindsie
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-28 01:31
All I know is that ideally, you're supposed to contact your bottom lip/teeth where the curve of the mouthpiece meets the bottom of the reed. This is a lot lower than where most people put it. So the longer the curve, the more mouthpiece should be "in".
I don't really know the physics of it, and could speculate and try to deduce it through a thought process, but I'm pretty tired today. Maybe Dr. Omar Henderson, WJK, or another largely scientific minded contributor will give us their thoughts.
Gotta say, this topic really interests me. I hope to hear the answer as well (good question there Lindsie!!!)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-04-28 12:27
Lindsie,
In conversations I had with Ralph Morgan (mouthpiece designer) several years ago he said that taking in more of the mouthpiece allows the reed and mouthpiece to work together in an optimal way. I've been fortunate in having had some very good saxophone and clarinet teachers. However, I don't remember any of them putting an emphasis upon taking in more of the mouthpiece as in the advice that Ralph Morgan gave me.
After talking with Ralph about this I experimented with taking in more of the mouthpiece on each of my horns and I was extremely happy with the results. In each case my sound became bigger and more vibrant. In the course of these experiments I made a modification to my saxophone embouchure that came to me as a pure intuitive hunch. The before and after differences were nothing short of amazing. When I called Ralph Morgan to tell him of my discovery he chuckled and said "Of course". Then, he went into a detailed explaination of WHY it worked. In the course of his explaination he mentioned that saxophone players in the old big bands often took in quite a bit of the mouthpiece so they could get enough sound to hold their ground against the brass section. Ralph said that many saxophone teachers have forgotten about this.
I find it interesting to look around at the other saxophone or clarinet players in a big band or concert band to see how much of the mouthpiece they are taking in. In many cases they don't take in very much. I can't help but wonder if some saxophonists use stiffer reeds and/or more open mouthpieces as a way to compensate for taking in too little of the mouthpiece. Just a personal theory. I've found on saxophone that by taking in quite a bit of the mouthpiece I can have a big, projecting, sound with a mouthpiece that has a smaller tip opening than what is commonly used by most tenor saxophone players.
While I've been talking more about the saxophone in this message, I've had similar good results on clarinet. I completely agree with your teacher's advice. If you take in too much you can get squeeks and control becomes problematic. As you said, it's a matter of finding that "right spot". Like Alexi suggested, look at your mouthpiece (with reed and ligature on) from the side and see where the reed breaks away from the mouthpiece's facing curve. This is the spot where I put my lip on the reed.
Hope this helps.
Roger
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2005-04-28 19:01
Hi,
You could try reading Dr Perone:
http://raider.muc.edu/~peroneje/tipsforbeginners.htm
His home page is quite interesting.
I'm not sure why this link is 'Tips for beginners' because it contains a lot of useful advice for everyone.
Steve
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Author: dieter
Date: 2005-04-28 20:48
I just tried it as silently as I could (It's getting late here :-) and it has done wonders for me! I've picked up the clarinet after years of inactivity (I'm 22 now) and I've been trying different embouchures, tongue positions etc ... Response, ability to tongue, ... it all improved ... and my tone didn't worsen on top of that :-)
cheers,
Dieter
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-04-28 21:13
It has a lot to do with the length of the facing of the mouthpiece. If your mouthpiece is very open and has a short facing, you wouldn't take much mouthpiece (and the reed would intersect with the facing at that point - closer than a longer facing would be).
Your top teeth should (as should as there is here, lots are up for debate) be higher on the mouthpiece than your lower lip is on the bottom.
The more top teeth down on the mouthpiece, the easier it will be to loose control.
You can take quite a bit on the bottom lip down the reed and not loose control.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-04-29 04:31
Dave B's got a good point (top teeth versus bottom teeth). Of course it varies with jaw structure, but in general it works.
Basically, what I've done to try to find the "sweet spot" is to see if I can play all overtones, without using the appropriate register keys, by as slight a movement of the lower lip as possible.
Example: Play a C => xxx | ooo Then, without hitting the register key, find where you can put your lip to overblow it to a G a twelfth up with a very slight movement of the bottom lip (probably 'down' the reed).
Then press the register key, play a G, and see where you can overblow it to an E without lifting your index finger. Try it with a few notes, try playing scales, etc. It works well for me in finding my "sweet spot" and helping me to make sure I HIT the note that I want with little or no grunting (undertone).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-04-29 15:08
yea, I think I have found the spot...and I know how to do the overtone thing.
I was thinking some more and I honestly think for at least the greater sound part it is because your jaw is lower down on the MP, thus allowing the reed more room to vibrate and essentially making your MP more open. I have the feeling (but I am just speculating) that if one kind of chokes the reed (by having their bottom lip to far up on the MP/reed), the reed has little room to vibrate and so the opening is smaller. So less air gets through the instrument that way, and obviously that would create a smaller sound. I am guessing that being able to put more air through the instrument (not necessarily play louder...just put more air through) makes it more in tune, but I am not sure why. I wonder if it has to do with the "warm air"? Though I have never understood that term, every living body has warm air. I have never met someone with cold breath, but that's just me...
So perhaps the reed having more room to vibrate allows more air to go through, thus creating a more....open...sound, or full, I suppose, and more in tune. But that doesn't stand true all the time, I have heard people with more open mouthpieces be out of tune and play softly, though I suppose they may not be taking enough mouthpiece either. They have somewhat compensated for that by buying a more open MP, but still, they choke the reed.
I guess that makes sense.
thoughts?
-Lindsie
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-04-29 15:33
Lindsie, et. al
I think (as an engineer that can do some basic acoustics and vibration analyses, but is mystified about the the effects of a ligature on a clarinet reed ...) That Lindsie's analysis of the effect of moving the lower lip on the reed is a good one.
If you "roll" the reed over the curvature of the mouthpiece, you shorten the reed and close the opening. Shortening the reed will increase its natural vibration frequency, raising the pitch.
Since the reed's flapping synchronizes with the air pulses reflecting from the lowest closed tone-hole, it adopts the instrument's "desired" note, so "choking up" on the reed shouldn't(much) change the pitch --about the same effect as tightening the pressure on the reed.
The amount of energy that can be transferred from the reed to the air in the clarinet must decrease when less of it is allowed to vibrate. If there is less reed involved in exciting the air column, one would have to blow harder to make the same volume.
Stretching the limits of my offhand analysis, it seems, too, that the shorter reed segment would affect the generation of harmonics.
So, It looks to me like Lindsie is correct. Withdrawing the mouthpiece and shortening the effective length of the reed is similar to shortening and closing the lay of the mouthpiece. This works until the lower lip is below the bottom of the reed, where "no" movement takes place.
Perhaps if one is pleased with taking more mouthpiece, one should experiment with a longer lay-ed and/or more open mouthpiece.
Bob Phillips
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-04-29 16:06
hmmm....does that mean that if one were to play on a short reed (whether the person cuts it, or buys a naturally shorter reed, like the michel lurie), that his or her pitch would be higher? I wonder because I have been testing out different reed brands, one of which was the michel lurie (consequently a 5, which apparently matches the thinckness of the Vandorn 4, which is what I play), and this reed brand was significantly shorter in length than the typical reed (i.e. gonzalez, vandoren, vandoren v-12, etc). I have long since thrown out the michel luries, finding them 'okay' reeds in the beginning, but after sometime I did not like them. Strangely enough they were a bit thin sounding! But I wonder, would their shorter make-up make for a higher pitch? And would I, being naturally sharp, be sharper with this shortened reed?
as for the choking the reed bit, if that does not affect (raise) the pitch, than what about my embochure change did? because when I lowered my jaw, my pitch was closer, if not right on, and I was able to tune better with a standing pitch...
-Lindsie
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Author: dmfett
Date: 2005-04-29 16:59
My late teacher Joseph Allard has a tape on what you shol do and it is well worth the cost to get "clarinet & Sax principles techniques that work....The Master Speaks: Joe Allard VP11, $39.00 from sharper Video http://www.sharpervideo.com 1-800-519-8000.
It was fun to see this tape almost 40 years (67-73) after I took lessons from him. Now all can learn from this 35 min tape..
Good Luck!
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Author: johnson
Date: 2005-05-05 22:56
Does anybody know Ralph Morgan's e-mail?
I like his mouthpiece a lot.
I've bought a Buffet Bb Clarinet in Europe (442 Pitch).
In the beginning I bought another barrel (68mm), but there is still something to do.
I've heard that Vandoren has made a kind of mouthpiece (13 series) that deals with this problem. So I was wondering if he could help me with that.
I live in Brazil, but I'm going to study in the US next July.
Thank you,
Johnson Machado
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-05-06 16:29
Johnson,
Ralph's email address is rmorganinfo@aol.com. If you have trouble reaching him please send a note to my email address and I'll send you Ralph's phone number. I don't think that he wants it posted on forums.
Roger
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-05-07 16:24
One of my teacher's told me that to find the place where your mouth should go on thr mouthpiece, insert a piece of paper in between the reed and the mouthpiece. When the paper can't go down any farther, that's where you should put your mouth. It's worked for me and just improves everything all around!
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