 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-23 03:43
This is my problem and I need help trying to understand the causation of my slump.
I never had problems making reeds; however, last spring I exhausted my supply of cane I used for the last ten years. Since then my ability to make successful reeds has dropped to a pitiful success rate. I have tried at least 9 different batches of cane. All my old reeds play well. Although, the are numbering fewer and fewer! I examined the scrapes - and I am making the reeds in the same manner.
I did have some problems with my gouger last spring. I had it serviced at least three times. I do have a micrometer and I do measure each piece of gouged cane for consistency. Could the blade curve be different? Or something else? It is Ross gouger. I had no problems though with the gouger for the last 12 years.
I cannot understand why I am having such difficulty. Could the cane be so different? It the past I could whip up a good reed in one sitting.
Now don't get me wrong I can make a somewhat playable reed - but they are not up to performance quality. They have a very poor tone and flexibility.
Here's some information: I play with a relaxed embouchure and the reed has to sit freely. Pitch adjustment is made with a light embouchure adjustment and air support.
The reeds now are too stiff, hard, poor vibrations and an at times be more open than I care for.. I have attempted to adjust them by holding them close - scraping off more wood - all with no success. It is a nightmare -
The reeds initially sound good in the lower register - however, play poorly in the upper register. Very difficult to adjust them to be freer and maintain a good tone in the upper register. They also need a firmer embouchure. They are very difficult to play in my relaxed style. Poor pitch stability in the upper register too .................... most likely due to the stiffness etc....... If I play relaxed the reed goes flat - if I play with a firm embouchure - it will go sharp. I know these are all the signs of a reed with either too much wood - too much opening - however, reeds with small openings have a stiffness too.
I have tried all my tricks and strategies which have been very successful in the past. I have tons of reeds books and manuals ................ and the advice has always worked for me - not now. I even tried different proportions.
Could my oboe be the problem? I don't think so because old reeds still play well!
It is a mystery that is driving me NUTS!
I know the adage - if it is hard and flat throw it out.
I am not over tying .......
The irony is that if you hold up the old reeds and the new reeds together under a back light - they look pretty much identical!
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-09-23 04:50
This answer probably doesn't help you get out of the reed slump, but some things that might attribute to your slump:
1. The cane that you use now might respond differently to the blade than your previous cane. For example, if it's softer, it might require more "pushing down", which would compress the fibers and change the way it gouges. Or, perhaps before you got your machine serviced, the blade was dull and you WERE pressing down, and compressing the fibers, or even "tearing" the fibers off with the gouge rather than cutting the fibers, all which can effect the vibrations.
2. On single radius gouging machines, the sides are the fastest to dull, so your gouge might have been giving you thicker sides. Now that you have the blade sharp, the sides might be gouging thinner, so regarding your question if the blade curve has changed, perhaps it has!
3. Did Mr. Ross change the size of the bed or the blade so that it was more suitable for cane a different radius? (i.e. change the bed from a 10.5 to an 11.0 mm bed, or the blade for a 10.25 rather than a 10.75 or something?)
Your symptoms of saggy upper register could be from a combination of two things:
1. Your gouge is too thick on the sides, giving you less vibrations down the middle, so you're scraping too much off the heart and down the center and losing stability, or...
2. Your gouge is too thin on the sides, giving you not enough support along the rails and so despite how thick you leave them, you won't get enough "meat" in the sound nor in the stability, and you'll have to weaken the skeletal structure somewhere.
The other hint as to what the problem might be is you state the opening is too big. It sounds like a critical symptom of #1, the sides being too open.
If you'd like further help, send me an email and I'll be happy to take a look at some of your reeds if you would like to send them to me to try.
Cooper
http://cooperwrightreeds.com/
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-09-24 21:56
Mark,
Can you post backlit pictures of your reeds? There are a few things affecting stability in the high range that can be diagnosed somewhat reliably by sight. For example, much of your description of the high range sounds like a reed with too much gradation and too little definition where the heart drops off into the tip. But there's no way to know for certain without seeing them.
Did Dan service your gouger? Or someone else? Dan does good work on his machines, so it's unlikely he ruined your gouge. That's the good news. But, on the other hand, it's almost certainly a slightly different gouge now. You never get the same gouge twice. That's not necessarily bad news, but it may require a slightly different scrape. Likewise, a different batch of cane may require a slightly different scrape.
So, what's the chronology? Did your troubles begin when you switched cane supplies, or when you had your gouger serviced? Or simultaneously?
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-25 00:15
Drew,
The reed slump unfortunately occurred during the time I had the gouger serviced (3x) and my ten year supply of excellent cane was exhausted.
In a funny way - I think that by putting the gouger "back in shape" it may have caused problems. One of the reasons I sent the gouger back - besides needing a sharper blade - was it seemed one side gouged thinner than the other! But you know - it made very good reeds!
I have tried too many batches of cane to this date - so the gouger set up is suspect.
I will test my theory this weekend. I will be getting gouged cane from a few oboists. I'll see what reeds I can leads I can whip up. Hopefully, this will settle the issue for me - cane or gouger!
If I still have problems - I will then post some pics and maybe a crow or two!
Please note - I have only the highest regards for Dan Ross. It have been a real gentleman and advisor. If I feel the problem is in the setup - I will contact Dan once more. Unfortunately - shipping he gouger back and forth itself causes problems because of poor handling by the delivery people.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2009-09-25 15:42
Dan is a prince, no question. Mark, have you been shipping your gouger in the foam-laden case that comes with the gouger? As well as taping the carriage so it won't move back & forth in shipment? My guess is that you have been doing both of these things. I know that when my gouger comes back from overhaul by Dan, it is always securely fastened with the green cellophane tape. His machine is built like the Rock of Gibraltar. I'm thinking it's almost gotta be the curve of the blade, which is Dan's stock in trade. So if anyone could crack that nut, I'm sure he can. I think that inre this particular conundrum, perseverance will be the price of victory.
Best,
john
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-25 19:32
John,
I am in touch with Dan. Before I send the gouger back - I will try to scrape some new reeds and see what success I have with the cane.
You know - I have tried to control so many variables. This new one is really interesting as well as frustrating....................... THE CURVE OF THE BLADE ... sounds like a horror movie - LOL.
I wonder about all the people who buy gouged cane. How do they know what the gouge really is all about?
So one more variable to consider in reed making. And I thought I had most of it under some control! What an illusion....................
I see now that even gouging - similar to reed construction is a science unto itself. My new mantra is not where is the perfect reed - but where is the perfect blade curve!
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-25 20:20
Hi,
Here some more information on my reed slump. My reeds crow "C" but play flat!?!?!? And Sharp in the upper register!?!?!?!
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-25 21:52
Hi,
One more observation. My new reeds don't seem to have a good core to push against. My old reeds definitely do! So the sound is "mushy" around the edges; rather than focused and centered.
I am sure this is why the pitch is so unstable .......................
Once again, the reed approach is the same as always use as well as my approach to the instrument.
I'll try cane from another gouger soon. I will keep you informed on my progress in solving this conundrum.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-09-26 19:38
I would recommend you get hold of a few tubes of a different batch of cane, before you start changing your gouger blade curvature. Ask a friend to send you half a dozen tubes of cane to try out.
Alternatively, if you can take some tubes over to a friend with a gouger (or even send them to somebody) and try out the gouged cane from there, it will help you discount the cane as a factor.
J.
Post Edited (2009-09-26 19:39)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-09-28 12:07
Hi Everyone,
Well, I just a got three pieces of gouged cane from a friend. I sould have done this sooner; however, I needed to see if my cane supply was a significant contributing factor in my reed slump.
This is what I have observed as of this date. The curve of the new cane is definitely different. The new cane has a more defined curve (and in hindsight my old gouge cane had this shape too). There is more cane in the center with a quicker slope to thinner sides. My present gouge seems to be more uniformly curved. There is more cane in the center however, the slope is more gradual and the sides are thicker. One more thing. I checked the new cane with my micrometer. The gouge is consistent through the piece; while my current gouge is not uniformly consistent and has some minor peaks and valleys - about 1 mm or so in variation. I attributed this to the slight imperfections in the cane -but now I wonder if it is the gouger too.
I will be getting more cane and I will compare those pieces too to my gouged cane. I still have to make some new reeds. I'll keep you all informed.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-09-30 06:23
I repeat: Send a few tubes to a friend with a gouger, and see how they pan out.
There is such a thing as a bad batch of tube cane, and you could drive yourself crazy (and even damage your gouger) trying to make reeds out of lousy cane. Get a second opinion.
J.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-09-30 07:41
Mark,
I think you just need a reed blog. It's not only helpful for others who go google searching for reed advice, but is good for you to keep tabs on your progress, and notes on experiments. You're on the right track to all of your hypothesis and experimentation. That's what really helps you to learn more about how reeds function and how to scrape them accordingly.
Cooper
http://cooperwrightreeds.com/
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-09-30 17:24
>I think you just need a reed blog.
How did Tabuteau ever survive without one?
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-09-30 20:42
I am in the stone age regarding internet savvy and am not sure you need a reed blog or not, BUT I can tell you that my local oboe guru keeps a detailed notebook about everything from gouger measurements to where he bought his cane. It's full of diagrams and dates and seems to me to be a great time-saver as well as a progress-tracker.
I wish I was more disciplined in this way, but I think keeping track (of that experimentation etc) as the others suggest is really a good idea.
GoodWinds
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-10-01 15:27
You are right, and cjwright's idea is probably a good one. As long as your keeping notes, might as well make the notebook an open, interactive one! Being an old guy, though, it just struck me funny that a blog is sort of a 21st-century answer to everything, even reed problems.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-02 15:12
Well it looks like the 3 month reed slump is over! 2 x 2 success!
I think three changes contributed to success: firstly, I have used different cane and a different gouge; secondly, I have modified my scrape to accommodate the original troublesome gouge; thirdly, the weather has changed (the relative humidity is 20% lower now in the reed room).
The best results come from the different cane/gouge - the result is two beautiful free blowing reeds with a sweet tone and stable pitch! I made them with little trouble and less effort.
My experimentation with the original gouge may have improved too; the reeds are promising and are still in process. I have changed the scrape in the following way: more wood in the central part of the tip/blend, a thicker - shorter - more defined heart with longer windows - instead of a longer thinner heart and smaller windows. I will know definitely in a day or two whether I have definitely solved the puzzle of the new gouge. I am proceeding very slowly - making minor adjustments daily. I just want some back up reeds until I receive some new gouged cane and the gouger setup is up to my specifications.
And I believe the lower relative humidity is helping too.
I sent the gouger to be serviced and before I settle on a "good enough" gouge - I will have some cane sent back to me to work.
From this experience it seems the gouge is the major factor in my "reed slump". The old gouge is superior! The curve with a steeper slope and thinner sides.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Mark
PS: Even with scrape modifications - the old gouge curve does not work! Too much effort and time for mediorce-poor - terrible ouitcomes.
Post Edited (2009-10-02 20:26)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-06 21:28
Hi,
I just found three pieces of shaped cane - lying in a draw from about 5 years ago. So I have the old gouge and the old cane supply.
Scraped a playable reed in one sitting!
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-09 17:52
Hello,
I want to thank everyone for their support during my reed slump.
I just got back my gouger. There was a problem with the curvature of the blade. A new sharpened blade was set with attention to my concerns.
Although, I haven't yet scraped a reed - visible inspection tells the story. I regouged some old cane and the results are very good. The curvature is correct now - with the proper slope to thinner sides.
As Dan put it "the blade was off".
Mark
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