 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-01 12:05
This was touched upon in another thread, but you who have played the Backun Q or Alpha basses and also some of the Buffet basses, how do they compare regarding tone?
I very much like the "classical" tone of the Tosca bass in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-TDr-zTbqg&ab_channel=BuffetCrampon
Do you think something similar would be achievable on the Backun basses?
I'm aware that such as the mouthpiece, reed and player may matter more regarding tone than just the horn alone - but still also the latter plays a significant, or sometimes even a crucial role.
Post Edited (2024-11-01 12:15)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-11-01 12:20
This forum is so stuck on Backun basses and perhaps it's because at least in America and Canada they are being heavily promoted. If you like the sound of a Buffet - buy a Buffet!
Have a listen to this and particularly the advice at the end https://youtu.be/21bcWIWJvFM?si=CDfAQ5VHXPkv5w45
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-01 15:58
While there are always differences and subtleties in the tone of one instrument vs another, I am sure many players can get any sound they want on any instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-11-01 19:39
I was told point blank that my Buffet Prestige bass - the instrument itself - is 'gutless' by someone who didn't even play one, but only relayed what someone else said in passing and took their word as gospel, rather than trying the instrument out for themselves.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-11-02 04:48
There is so much nonsense floating around that is supposedly "common knowledge" or "facts" which are merely based on some person's opinion or hearsay. Lots of it is some kind of weird snobbery.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-04 11:19
Related Academic Reading:
1) "The Emperor's New Clothes."
2) " The Princess And The Pea."
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: rs cl
Date: 2024-11-04 13:05
"I'm aware that such as the mouthpiece, reed and player may matter more regarding tone than just the horn alone - but still also the latter plays a significant, or sometimes even a crucial role."
Yes, the most important factors in making a tone of any decent quality are the player and the mouthpiece and reed. Vincet Penot, in the video, could probably produce the same quality of tone with a vacuum cleaner pipe.
In cycling they say "ride up grades, don't buy upgrades" to get fitter. The same applies with playing the (bass) clarinet.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2024-11-04 15:53
One more thing!
One of the most important differences between the amateur and professional will often, but not always be, the proper setup of the instrument, absolutely essential with the bass clarinet.
Many novices are given an imperfect instrument so they can fill the gap in their band or orchestra. Unsurprisingly, they struggle because pads don't cover, there is lost motion in the keywork, imperfect venting and leaks, perhaps due to imperfect tone hole surfaces.
Seasoned professional bass players know all this and it's just one reason why they should never lend their instrument to an inexperienced player - the setup will have taken time and money!
I've taken many sectional rehearsals with amateur players and, through no fault of their own, the most common issues are the state of the instrument and setup. With bass clarinet the issues are compounded. All the fuss over which brand of instrument goes for nothing if the follow on from purchase is not properly determined. If you're buying some of the instruments being described on this forum unseen and depending on them leaving the supplier in perfect condition - good luck! Setup is something to be accomplished in the company of the technician who will check and advise. Even after the initial meeting a return may be necessary as things settle down and new preferences occur to the player.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-05 14:42
While I think we all agree about the "minor" role of a horn alone concerning tone (compared to the player, mouthpiece and reed), I still don't think it's quite as insignificant as some here seem to suggest.
A thought provoking example might be that of the pro horns of Yamaha vs. Buffet (here I'm primarily referring to soprano clarinets, but the following conclusions includes basses). I feel a general consensus here to be that the Yamahas are "better" in almost every respect - in consistency, how they are set up already out of the box, tuning (or at least not any worse than on the Buffets), etc. Even the price point is in great favour of the Yamahas. So how come a majority of pro players are still choosing Buffets, and only a small minority the Yamahas?
I can only see their tone difference as the decisive factor.
Surely many of us are quite conservative in choosing our instruments, and we also tend to follow the majority (as people in general) - but I believe such factors are still accounting only partly for this antilogy.
Also Yamaha as a brand is similarly well established as Buffet, their clarinets are available worldwide, and surely most (if not all) pro players have test played a Yamaha.
Or, are these hordes of pros running after Buffets perhaps just too lazy, or lacking the skill of adjusting their voicing etc to get just the same sound from a Yamaha as they'r getting from their Buffets? I don't think so.
- Some players can evidently pick up almost any horn (even of a German system or vice versa) and still sound the same. Is that due to an amazing ability of instantly adjusting their embouchure, voicing, etc to always get "their" tone? Can't believe that, but instead I believe some players "internal setup" (anatomy, voicing, etc) to be of a special kind that simply "resonates" quite the same with just about any "external setup" (horn, mouthpiece, reed, etc). However, to me it would be incorrect to claim that to be the case with just any player - or that it would be somehow achievable by anyone with just enough practise.
- In accordance with the foregoing, most players would not sound the same on any horn (based on personal experiences, with myself included). Still, the degree of influence of a specific horn with a specific player would certainly vary.
- To be perfectly clear about the Yamaha vs. Buffet example, I certainly believe those few pros choosing a Yamaha are indeed sounding better (or at least equal, and what's "better" or "equal" is of course subjective) on their instruments than on any Buffet model they've tried. While I believe some of the current Buffet players also would do that (but they are stuck with their Buffets for other reasons), I also believe that most of them just aren't getting a "better" sound from a Yamaha than what they get from their Buffet (also here due to how their "internal setup" resonates with their "external setup").
All this once again stresses the "try before buy"-saying, as well as try a selection of different makes and models as large as possible (Buffets, Yamahas, Selmers, Uebels, Backuns, etc) - to find out what "resonates" best with you and your "internal setup".
Still, other players subjective experiences are of interest to me (not at least in this case since not a single Buffet bass is stocked by a single vendor in my whole country, so no chance to compare or try out without travelling far).
I'm still hoping that someone who actually have played both a Buffet bass (preferably a Tosca or Prestige) and a Backun Alpha or Q would share just their personal assessment. Also about tonal differences (or not) between the Alpha and Q basses.
Post Edited (2024-12-09 00:55)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2024-11-05 18:01
Slightly off topic, but the main reason most pros choose Buffet over Yamaha is because of how soft the key work is. The first (and thankfully last) time I worked on a 622 I was terrified of how easy it was to bend not just the keys but even the posts! I had to make significant modifications to the basset keys to get them to close properly. In many ways it was worse than some cheaper Chinese basses. On the plus side it did have good response and intonation. Yamaha does a fantastic job of setting up their instruments, but the alloys they use are just not suitable for a professional level bass clarinet IMHO.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-07 09:28
I just played a Buffet Pro horn next to the Backun Alpha. Hmmmmm the Backun had better intonation but a bit lacking in tone, the Buffet was a bit harder to play- with uneven resistance and some tuning oddities- but was far more rewarding in terms of the tone. Of course, the Alpha is a "student instrument" that is streets ahead of any other "student instrument", indeed the register/Bb exchange mechanism is streets ahead of half the pro instruments I've played. I was quite impressed by the Alpha, but not tempted to switch over.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-07 09:55
>> the main reason most pros choose Buffet over Yamaha is because of how soft the key work is. <<
Maybe, but from what I see it's mostly the tone and the feel, with the keys being softer maybe a third reason. On the Yamaha the issue is not just that keys are soft, it's also the design itself.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-07 13:11
What I don't understand, is if the Buffet's bass key work design is indeed mechanically superior, then why don't other manufacturers just adopt it? It's not like Buffet has an exclusive contract with Von Braun. It's very unusual in the world of mechanical engineering for superior design not to become generally adopted very quickly.
Any coherent explanations?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-07 15:44
Before Backun, Uebel and Royal Global are the only basses I know of that copied Buffet's (Rene Hagmann's) post 1999 Prestige bass keywork.
That was the primary reason I bought a Buffet bass back in 2000 as that redesigned keywork is well balanced and far simpler in design than keywork used on Leblanc, Selmer and Yamaha low C basses.
While having three low D keys is a bit overkill, at least the Tosca and I assume others have turned the thumb low D key into a duplicate low Eb key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-12-08 08:19
Regarding the "tone difference" I know my post wasn't very descriptive, but there's limited time in my life for such stuff and no one here pays too much attention to anything I write anyway. But I'm a pro player who got my first position in a pro orchestra in 1992, and was immediately thrown into playing Bass clarinet for a ballet season. Since then I've played many Selmer and Buffet basses and spent hours playing orchestral rep in addition to multiphonics, microtones and 3 octave leaps.
And if I had $7000 to spend on a bass I'd rather get my Buffet done up than buy a new Alpha, even though I WAS pretty impressed by it. Why? My Buffet sounds better.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-12-08 08:51
>> What I don't understand, is if the Buffet's bass key work design is indeed mechanically superior, then why don't other manufacturers just adopt it? <<
They have. A few manufacturers copied Buffet.
Selmer isn't a copy, but they made huge improvements in the Privilege vs. previous models, some of which were taken from Buffet (though implemented in a somewhat different way).
Yamaha specifically has a different design, mostly taken from older Selmers. I guess it's a matter of whether a complete redesign is worth it to them. At some point even small changes could mean many new molds, re-programming, testing, of other things, etc. and it depends whether they think the investment is worth it.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-12-08 13:44
@donald:
No doubting your professional experience, but what if your bass isn't any good to begin with? Would you then buy a Backun? Furthermore, what about its wooden brother, the Model Q?
Please don't refrain from writing, I know sometimes on the internet (and sadly on these old, honorable forums) attention is only given to whom barks the loudest, but I certainly am interested about what you've got to say.
Best regards
Christian
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-12-08 13:57
Yes!... but Yamaha have ever been notably active in the matter of improvements in design and performance. If their bass key work is indeed soft, then right there you have an issue even bigger than any shortcomings in its design. All very uncharacteristic of Yamaha I would say.
The Chinese budget bass manufacturers appear to churn out keywork designs like they were making pancakes, something which lends a certain irony to the matter of certain top manufacturers dragging their heels on making obvious improvements.
Like I said, it's unusual in the world of engineering for superior design to not become the new normal, but when it comes to basses, this tendency seems to be lagging.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-12-09 00:44
Donald, thank you for taking your time writing - very much appreciated indeed. First reply so far to the topic of this thread. Hopefully someone will share their assessment also of the Q bass vs. Buffet's pro basses.
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Author: A.Nori
Date: 2024-12-09 16:10
I purchased a Backun Alpha.
The Backun bass clarinet is good because it gracefully adopts the best parts of Selmer and Buffet.
The side key system is Selmer's bass clarinet, and the register system is Buffet's Tosca itself. The Backun element is added to it, and it is very easy to handle.
The bass keys are also mostly Buffet's, making them easy to handle.
I cannot meditate on the fact that it is resin, but I think it is one of the very best entry-level machines for the price.
I have played it in an orchestra and it was very well received by the players around me. The only people who would notice that it is resin are the players who are familiar with the tone of the bass clarinet.
As for the tone, it is similar to a Selmer bass clarinet. It is not a moist buffet tone, but rather light.
I am thinking of changing the pads; the Alpha has Valentino pads, but the Valentino pads lighten the sound too much.
Post Edited (2024-12-09 16:13)
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Author: A.Nori
Date: 2024-12-09 16:24
In the end, tone is a personal preference.
The Alfa is resin, so when I play it, I still want a wooden instrument.
However, it is also true that there has never been a bass clarinet made as good as this one as an entry-level instrument, and it is an instrument that should be more available to the world. I have no regrets about buying it. It's perfect for learning.
The slight lightness of resin instruments is more of a concern to the player than to the audience.
The Alpha is made the same as the Q except for the material.
If you like the sound of a buffet, you will definitely be happier with a buffet.
Even Selmer does. But I think the light blowing feel of the Buckun bass clarinet is one of the most appealing things about it that I have not heard in a bass clarinet before.
I think that tone of the buffet is perfect for playing classical music.
I would like to hear more opinions from different people.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-12-11 05:55
Julian ibiza wrote:
> Yes!... but Yamaha have ever been notably active in the matter
> of improvements in design and performance. If their bass key
> work is indeed soft, then right there you have an issue even
> bigger than any shortcomings in its design. All very
> uncharacteristic of Yamaha I would say.
Yamaha has been making great strides in improving their various instrument designs, but strangely their bass clarinets are an unfortunate exception. The register mechanism on their pro-basses also feels rather flimsy IMO compared to other pro instruments(both French and German system ones), while the sound isn't as remarkable as their competitors. Yet I haven't seen any upgrades on their design in at least the last 12 years, and frankly it's way overdue for Yamaha to do so.
Josh
Post Edited (2024-12-19 00:33)
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-12-11 06:01
jdbassplayer wrote:
> Slightly off topic, but the main reason most pros choose Buffet
> over Yamaha is because of how soft the key work is. The first
> (and thankfully last) time I worked on a 622 I was terrified of
> how easy it was to bend not just the keys but even the posts! I
> had to make significant modifications to the basset keys to get
> them to close properly. In many ways it was worse than some
> cheaper Chinese basses. On the plus side it did have good
> response and intonation. Yamaha does a fantastic job of
> setting up their instruments, but the alloys they use are just
> not suitable for a professional level bass clarinet IMHO.
Also their register mechanism designs are rather flimsy IMO- the one on my plastic old 221 went out of adjustment a lot, and even more so on the pro 621 one in my then-middle school. Rather unfortunate given Yamaha's very fine work on most of their other instruments, but their bass clarinets seem to be neglected somewhat.
Josh
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-12-11 12:24
Yamaha's 221 speaker mechanism isn't the best design as it relies on the small rocker for the switchover of the vents instead of using it to apply even pressure to hold both closed and any friction or incorrect travel will cause problems. It's not an ideal mechanism and relatively fragile given the kind of punishment a plastic bass will encounter.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2024-12-12 09:17
I haven’t tried the Q, but I have tried the alpha (and many many other instruments…)
It’s (the alpha low c bass) a good instrument, and definitely a good value for the price, but I wouldn’t say it’s the best thing since sliced bread necessarily. I agree they’ve been very heavily marketed. People should continue to do what they’ve always done, which is to try different options for themselves, and choose the instrument that speaks to them personally! Whether that’s Backun, Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha, Uebel, etc.
Just because there’s shiny new Backuns on the market, doesn’t mean other instruments aren’t still as good as they were before…
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