 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-19 13:09
A. Brady: Thank you for the information! I've never liked synthetiic reeds, but this is certainly worth a try. This is a case of Bernard Vandoren-a discerning man of business -thinking: if you can't beat them, join them.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2023-04-19 22:26)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-04-19 16:05
bet they will play way too hard just like vandy cane reeds . site says softest is 2.5
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-04-19 18:21
HAHAHA! I'm liking the strength numbers - 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60 - that's definitely going to appeal to American players who obsess over reeds with insanely high strength numbers! Although it doesn't quite go up to 100 which is the ultimate goal.
60? Pah! That's just for beginners!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-04-19 19:55
Is the different numbering system acknowledging that in future it may be possible to also have a 36, 37, 38 and 39, and so on?
I suppose with plastic it must be much easier to make very specific strengths quite consistently.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-19 23:57
Vandoren has tremendous financial and technological means; they don't have to copy anybody. I suppose they're afraid of being superseded by synthetic reeds. Personally, I think there will never be any substitute for cane, and so be it. It is, after all, called "a reed".
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-04-20 00:29
I agree with ruben. Nothing plays like a good cane reed. Everyone should keep that in mind.
Post Edited (2023-04-20 00:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2023-04-20 01:18
There will never be a substitute for cane? A cane reed can never be improved upon? Cane is the last word? Really?
Someone should have mentioned that to Guy Legere and his partner when they started on their quest to produce a viable synthetic reed more than 20 years ago. Imagine how much time and money they would have saved! Similarly, the people at Vandoren must be stupid to attempt to produce a synthetic reed. They should just stick to cane since cane is the only material you can use to make an effective clarinet or saxophone reed.
Here's something to ponder, gentlemen. Whatever it may be, it is only the latest, it is never the last. Never. Have you ever seen a clarinet from the time of Mozart? Or sat in a car built in 1965? Or handled a rotary-dial telephone?
Cane can be improved upon, cane has been improved upon, and cane is continuing to be improved upon. And that process, one hopes, will never stop.
Paul Globus
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-20 02:07
Hahaha, Paul!
Let me paraphrase:
"You know - people shouldn't paint pictures anymore, we have cameras." (Being lighthearted here.)
However, to take your thought to its logical conclusion: Soon we won't need human players or physical clarinets at all - there will be AI clarinetists to play perfectly for free.
Perhaps we need to leave a little difference of opinion/method in the mix for the sake of art and humanity?
For what its worth, I still use a vehicle that was built in 1949, use a working rotary dial phone at my desk (a 1940s Steelcase desk, by the way), my daily player clarinet built in 1898, and I still prefer to shoot and develop my own film. Too often, folks leave what is good for what is new/easy. Arguments can be had pertaining to whether it is worth it - but always it is a matter of opinion and taste.
Love plastic reeds?! Great!
Think cane is the be all end all?! Great!
Improvement is in the eye of the beholder.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-20 09:30
Paul: Is formica an improvement on wood? I would also add that I would never prevent a student from using a plastic reed. Synthetic reeds have certainly vastly improved, but for all its drawbacks, I still feel there's nothing like cane. For the moment...
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2023-04-20 09:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-04-20 12:10
>> "You know - people shouldn't paint pictures anymore, we have cameras." <<
That was a pretty common opinion back when cameras started to become more popular.
>> I think there will never be any substitute for cane <<
Who knows...? There are many things that improved by using a newer material that was unknown or wasn't invented before. In some cases it took a while before a material was developed enough to the point where manufacturing became realistic.
Random example - still on the subject of cameras - carbon fiber tripods are nearly always better than others (usually aluminium). Maybe some people thought there will never be any substitute for aluminium.
>> Soon we won't need human players or physical clarinets at all - there will be AI clarinetists to play perfectly for free. <<
Probably not soon, but regardless, the question is what's the "purpose" of using instruments or playing music and whether AI can replace that.
>> Too often, folks leave what is good for what is new/easy. <<
Maybe not too often, but sometimes, people leave what is good for what is nostalgic or some other psychological reason (e.g. "vintage").
Maybe someone in the 1950s thought people leave their great 1920s cars for those newer cars...
>> I still prefer to shoot and develop my own film. <<
Why "prefer"? Why not both? Film definitely isn't better than digital (notice I'm not saying it's worse). I used to shoot film (before digital) and then again for a few years not that long ago, including developing and printing myself. I stopped a couple of years ago.
For a start it's very environmentally unfriendly.
There are a lot of things in photography that are at best very unrealistic or at worst flat out impossible with film.
If your purpose is to have the feeling you get from using film, that's one thing. If your purpose is to get a certain photo, then the question is what is the best way to achieve that. I'm not saying film doesn't have a purpose, it absolutely does.
Back to reeds...
If the purpose is partly the feeling you get from using a cane reed, knowing the process from planting to making music with it, that's one thing...
>> but always it is a matter of opinion and taste. <<
It can be good to try to look at some things objectively, removing your opinion and taste as much as possible. Of course it's not necessary, and you don't have to choose what is "objectively good" either way. People struggle to admit to themselves what they prefer isn't better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-20 12:26
I feel the fruit and vegetables we buy at farmers' markets and that you have to peel, clean and cook will always have more flavor than the frozen stuff you just stick in a microwave oven. -granted, far less convenient and uniform in appearance.
PS: Nevertheless, I will try the new Vandoren synthetic reed and maintain an open mind about these things.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2023-04-20 20:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-20 14:44
Ok, now let's consider that there are pros and cons to both cane and synthetic reeds (as usual, there are tradeoffs to every decision).
With a synthetic reed the surface is perfectly smooth. Is that even a consideration? Well if you play them regularly you'd say YES.
A synthetic reed will play the same tomorrow (barring some catastrophic physical accident) as it does now. Constancy allows one to really hone in on OTHER problems if you are looking to improve play in some way. Constancy allows you to not worry about what you need to do to sound the way you want to (or need to) perform
Synthetic reeds are impervious to changes in humidity and temperature. It almost goes without saying what a godsend it is to be worry free from changes in the weather or season when it comes to performance.
Finally, there IS constancy from reed to reed. Once you find your strength, the performance from reed to reed (when you need to switch reed or just rotate for the sake of knowing you have that "great reed") is spot on. Try that with a box of cane reeds. Don't we all find about two or three reeds that never get used out of a box of ten?
You guys are right............there is no comparison.
:-)
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-20 15:07
Clarnibass,
I've always loved your posts, but I'm confused by your response.
My point was simply that newer does not automatically equal better; a response to Paul Globus' post which (in my understanding) hinted at the opposite.
That's all - that there can be joy/use found in the "old."
Which is better...film or digital? It depends.
Which is better...a brand new Tosca or a vintage instrument? It depends.
Which is better...a cane reed or a synthetic? It depends.
New does not equal better. New equals different. Whether that's "better" or not depends on your individual viewpoint, your experience, what you want to achieve, and whether those "new" differences help you or hinder you.
If such things were so easy to objectively measure, I wonder why we have different fingering systems, and so many makes and models of clarinet/gear.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: corrected spelling]
Post Edited (2023-04-20 15:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2023-04-20 16:52
I never said or implied that newer is always better. I said that the latest is never the last. Big difference.
Post Edited (2023-04-20 16:55)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-04-20 20:48
Paul Globus,
Thanks for correcting me. Makes sense!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-20 23:47
I would venture a comparison with gut strings as opposed to metal strings for string players. Most string players these days use metal strings: more durable, reliable and less expensive. But, you still have musicians that stick to gut strings and their unique quality: mostly people that play period instruments and Baroque music, but also musicians that play on "modern" instruments.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Pokenerd
Date: 2023-04-21 00:00
The majority will eventually shift to more synthetic as synthetic reeds become more common, but I bet there will still be people sticking with cane reeds century from now:)
I still feel like there needs to be at least 2 generations of players for synthetic reeds to become a majority though…
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-04-21 11:28
I wonder which players have been involved in the development and beta testing of these reeds. Must be some well known names involved. Any ideas, anyone?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2023-04-21 11:55
They kept it pretty "under wraps" and closed to a small circle who signed confidentiality agreements... really I'm not making that up.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-04-21 19:02
Thanks Donald. Certainly sounds plausible. Either someone has breached that agreement and told you, or you are one of the few, and breached the agreement yourself. ; )
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2023-04-21 19:57
While I know (and respect) that there are players who have switched to synthetic and are completely happy, for me, there is nothing like cane in sound and feel. It may be just that old habits die hard, but to me, the drawbacks are minimal and there are many more positives. Again, I recognize that there are plenty of folks who disagree or have different experiences, and I respect that.
FWIW- I did try to use Legeres for a time and found that for me they did not feel consistent from day to day and from reed to reed. Perhaps that is in part because I found that the slightest variation in placement (up/down and side to side) changed the playing characteristics considerably and much more than cane. I would often find the optimum placement and then just leave the reed and ligature intact between rehearsals and performances.
When I would put on a cane reed, it felt far more comfortable to me and I felt I was able to get more nuance and variations in tone color. The comfort level was much like slipping into those nice comfy shoes that you have broken in over time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-21 20:59
JTJC wrote:
> Thanks Donald. Certainly sounds plausible. Either someone has
> breached that agreement and told you, or you are one of the
> few, and breached the agreement yourself. ; )
To JTJC's point, many a confidentiality agreement not only prevents its signors from discussing the topics of the agreement, but the mere presence or absence of such an agreement as well. 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-04-22 00:42
Ed: "more variations in tone color and nuances" with cane: that puts in a nutshell how I feel about the matter. That said, there is another argument in favor of synthetic reeds: the environment. Cane grows in areas that are continually hit by droughts these days. I understand that cane sucks up a lot of water from the soil.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-24 07:46
Another interesting video from Michael Lowenstern that has merit. Interestingly the mystery reed test from Michael fooled me as well.
I wonder if like the Carbon Fiber ligature, you can order these reeds over the phone by calling the boutiques directly? I also wonder what the price is since the Lowensterns did not mention what "really expensive" is.
For this product I will wait until I hear more positive feedback from other players. Things have settled back down for me and my chosen Legers so there is no immediate need to find another solution.
but it sounds interesting........thanks Vandoren
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-04-24 13:47)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-04-24 08:42
I'm prejudiced against synthetic reeds due to a bad first experience with them, but I watched Michael Lowenstern's video on them and I was very impressed with their sound, and I will definitely consider them if I can find them once they become available.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-04-24 13:42
Interesting comparison by the Lowensterns. I'm a suspicious of the appearance of a cane-type grain in these. Ok if the material just comes out like that, but if it was a choice then was it really necessary? If the material is like that, can we expect variability reed to reed, to go along with the variability in appearance? Would have liked to hear something in the altissimo as that's a critical test to me. Can't think why they avoided trying that. I preferred the sound and evenness of the VK reed. It's clearly possible to get a good sound on these and, from this demo, articulation is fine. Another concern for me is how long these reeds can be played in a single ession before they flag (as Legere apparently do).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-24 16:45
The Legeres DON’T have a problem lasting for hours at a time if you use the right strength. If that does occur, move up another quarter strength.
The striped appearance could be a weaker/stronger material combo. This could help the vibrational characteristics of the reed since the actual vibration would be rather irregular looking as any standing wave would (I’ll post my favorite video of this when I jump on a computer).
………..Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: lydian
Date: 2023-04-24 18:14
Paul Globus wrote:
> It's no coincidence that it looks so much like a Legere reed.
>
It doesn’t look anything like Legere. Coincidence? I think not.
It is reed shaped, which is a good thing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2023-04-24 19:40
Lowenstern's video has a lot of good info. These seem very promising and may be a game changer for many players.
Post Edited (2023-04-26 01:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-25 01:06
Bass string: Super Slow Motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZFsMT7yMTw
Violin sting: Super Slow Motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JeyiM0YNo4
Cymbal: Super Slow Motion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpoanOlb3-w
The point is that where you'd think a material would just move back and forth (or up and down) it is actually making a very complex series of distortions. This must be happening with a clarinet reed as well. The varying material (type/strength) running vertically in a cane reed and in the Vandoren Synthetic probably aides this movement in some way.
Some stuff I heard from the New York store: No two reeds look (or sound) exactly the same. They will find their way into a more traditional retail position in a few months. Until then, they are ONLY for sale IN-PERSON. Vandoren requires (for the time being) players try the reeds out first to hone in on the strength that works best for them BEFORE purchase. This requires a visit to one of the US boutiques until the retail sales begin. And when Michael Lowenstern says...."They are expensive," that means $39.00 US dollars at the New York boutique (I was quoted different prices on the Carbon Fiber ligature amongst the stores so take that for what it is worth).
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-04-25 05:17)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-25 06:54
Wow Paul $39.
I do not think that a good price point.
I might have gone with $25, given Legere's Europeans are in the lower $30's range.
My argument would be that while I'm sure considerable cost went into designing these reeds, that Vandoren has every legitimate business case to recoup in price, once created:
* The marginal cost of each reed has to be pretty low. Cane has to be grown, harvested, set aside for seasons, sorted for bad product and cut.
* The name Vandoren is not synonymous with synthetic reeds. It's Legere that's developed their brand, and to coast on the Vandoren name with little user feedback regarding how these reeds play, their strength returnability if any, their playable life, and the ability to be customized, whether that's with boiling or material removal are all unknowns.
* Mark and Kathryn Lowenstern's opinion of this reed are of course just one couple's findings but I did not get the impression that they were blown away with the reed, just favorably impressed.
That said, if these synthetics don't play as flat *for me* as Legere's, that would be a welcome finding.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Connor1700
Date: 2023-04-25 16:35
Looks like a LOT of hubbub over a product that's not even on the market yet.... Vandoren is LOVING this!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-25 23:27
Well if you are in Chicago, LA or NYC they ARE on the market. And if they wind up being even more cane-like then the market proven Legere products, then we are not hub bubbing it enough!
………..Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-26 00:24
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Well if you are in Chicago, LA or NYC they ARE on the market.
> And if they wind up being even more cane-like then the market
> proven Legere products, then we are not hub bubbing it enough!
>
>
>
>
> ………..Paul Aviles
>
I'm pretty sure Paul that you mean more cane like in the ways that make cane the defacto standard--like feeling and sounding like good cane.
Needless to say, none of us want to pay $40 for a synthetic reed that is as markedly different from the same strength one lying next to it in the sales rack, and we want them to be not just consistent but pretty darn good.
I'm not sure that Vandoren marketing these as no two being alike--if that's both true and their strategy--is a good thing.
I guess we'll have to see how they are manufactured to understand how such difference in play between two of the same make/model/strengths comes to be, and if we can adjust (or they naturally adjust) these reeds to our preference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-26 05:47
So the differences would be quite subtle but the reference is more to the look of the manufactured product. The lines (or veins or ......xylem) in the reed are just different from reed to reed, they won't line up exactly in the same manner from one to the other.
Anyway I think for now the Lowenstern video (which it sounds like you have not watched) is the best window into the product performance. I have always found it a much more telling presentation to have the different products side by side in the same audio environment. You can hear what the difference is between cane and the synthetic Vandorens as presented by the Lowensterns and make up your own mind.
The exact pricing is not given for a reason.........so don't count on my number. The boutiques kinda do their own thing even amongst each other. Once the Vandoren synthetic hits its stride in retail locations there will be a determined price. It may be better or it may be worse.
At any rate I feel there is quite the potential for this to be a game changing product but we'll all (except for those who have visited one of the boutiques) have to take a deep breath and wait a little to find out for ourselves.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-26 06:27
Paul Aviles wrote:
> So the differences would be quite subtle but the reference is
> more to the look of the manufactured product.
For me its all about feel and play. I don't care about look. I think you and most others would agree.
>
>
> Anyway I think for now the Lowenstern video (which it sounds
> like you have not watched) is the best window into the product
> performance.
I watched; I said above that I watched.
> I have always found it a much more telling
> presentation to have the different products side by side in the
> same audio environment. You can hear what the difference is
> between cane and the synthetic Vandorens as presented by the
> Lowensterns and make up your own mind.
>
Sound is of course important, as is ease of play, intonation, etc., the ease of play less measurable of course to the observer of a video.
>
> The exact pricing is not given for a reason.........so don't
> count on my number.
Got it.
The boutiques kinda do their own thing
> even amongst each other. Once the Vandoren synthetic hits its
> stride in retail locations there will be a determined price.
> It may be better or it may be worse.
>
>
> At any rate I feel there is quite the potential for this to be
> a game changing product but we'll all (except for those who
> have visited one of the boutiques) have to take a deep breath
> and wait a little to find out for ourselves.
>
>
I don't. I hope I'm wrong and you're right.
I don't want to be pessimistic but for Vandoren, despite their size as a company, on version 1 no less of a product, to come up with the "secret sauce" that Legere is lacking, with all of the latter's research and development and refinement, before we even know if they can be swapped for strength, or adjustable, or their longevity vs Legere.....
....lot's of unknowns.
How good Paul can Vandoren make the reed even if (which I'll bet they can't) they could make it 5X better than it already is?
They'd risk shooting themselves in the foot with their conventional cane products.
Post Edited (2023-04-26 06:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-04-26 18:28
I'm sure Vandoren will price these reeds so that the company is not losing money from players switching from cane to synthetic. If a synthetic reed lasts 10X longer than cane, I would expect the synthetic reeds will end up selling for 10X or more more than cane reeds regardless of their actual production cost.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2023-04-26 21:39
I think they're essentially already priced that way.
Compare the cost of 1 synthetic reed to a box of reeds. Pretty similar from what I could tell.
Getting back into playing after 20 years.
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Ridenour Homage mouthpiece
Rovner Versa ligature
Vandoren V12 #3 - #3.5 reeds
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-26 22:09
One last thought. If the synthetic becomes the standard then Vandoren would be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn’t embrace synthetic. How about Bed Bath and Beyond as an example of not embracing online retailing. They are now stepping into the “Great Beyond.”
………..Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-04-27 17:32
You also have to look at how much VD saves itself if selling synthetic reed means traditional customers don't buy cane. Planting, growing, harvesting, processing and manufacturing cane can't be cheap. So they'll do less of it and save money. Also less to worry about, as the occasional natural disaster could destroy a cane crop. For the mid-to-ling term, isn't climate change supposed to be destroying the areas where cane traditionally been grown? It makes business sense to diversify into synthetics. If you're a major player in the reed business, or any business, you probably have not option but to match competitors in a new product area that's gaining market share.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-04-27 18:43
Paul Aviles wrote:
> One last thought. If the synthetic becomes the standard then
> Vandoren would be shooting themselves in the foot if they
> didn’t embrace synthetic. How about Bed Bath and Beyond as
> an example of not embracing online retailing. They are now
> stepping into the “Great Beyond.”
>
>
>
> ………..Paul Aviles
>
That's an extremely fair counterbalanced argument Paul. Vandoren needs to walk a fine line of not being FOMO (fear of missing out) on the synthetic market while not negatively effecting its bread and butter reed business in cane.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-27 21:54
That is indeed the definition of “the risk of doing business.” You have to be just a little good at predicting the future.
………Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: maxopf
Date: 2023-05-03 08:45
I had the chance to try/buy some of these today at the Vandoren studio in LA, and thought I would offer some initial thoughts.
Full disclosure, I've always been a cane reed player. I've never quite been able to make Légères work, as they're too different from what I'm used to. I find the pitch to be too low, they never felt like they had enough "backbone" or spine to support the sound, and articulation felt plasticky and thuddy.
To me, the VK1 feels much more similar to the playing experience of a V12 in terms of response and mouth feel. The physical dimensions are similar to a normal Vandoren reed — not super wide like the Légère Euro cut, and the heel is a normal thickness, similar to V12. They do vary a bit from reed to reed in terms of how they play — not as much as cane reeds, but enough to where they let you try many at the studio and pick the ones that work best on your setup. You can see some slight variation in the synthetic "xylem" that run the length of the reed, which I'm sure is somewhat responsible for this variation.
The best ones had a nice core sound, stable pitch and response even into the altissimo (though I felt they slightly lost quality starting around C above the staff) and let me handle a pretty wide range of dynamics and articulations without closing up. I didn't feel they were as rich or had as many interesting overtones as a good V12, and some bordered on dullness/stuffiness/an unfocused or slightly pinched sound quality, but for a plastic reed it's as good of an approximation as I've come across. I tried them on my own Kanter mouthpieces, as well as on a B40 Lyre. These reeds also seemed to work just fine with my metal Momo ligature, and don't seem to slide around on the mouthpiece.
I bought two strength "60" reeds (the hardest strength currently available, equivalent to 3.5). They went for $39 each plus tax. I play outdoors a lot, as our concert hall is under renovation in San Diego and we have a beautiful new outdoor Shell that we're playing at in the meantime. I figured these might come in handy for summer pops shows, doubling situations where my clarinet is sitting for long periods of time, and the dreaded "Santa Ana" heat waves we sometimes get here, which dry out the reeds faster than you can wet them. I haven't tried them in the orchestra yet, but I'm not sure they're quite to the point where I'd use them for classics concerts or anything very exposed/touchy — a good V12 still beats these by a fair margin in terms of the quality of sound and response — but I could see using them in certain situations. I also have yet to see how they'll break in, if at all, after extended playing.
After trying the reeds, the Vandoren representative at the studio asked me to answer a short survey about my impressions. They seem to be gathering feedback so that they can fine tune things. I was also explicitly told not to work on these reeds with a knife, sandpaper etc.
Perhaps in the coming days I'll record a side-by-side comparison if I can find the time. For now, I've uploaded a short unlisted clip here, playing a strength 60 on the Kanter:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Hxtr2sCDcow
Let me know if I can answer any questions about these!
Max Opferkuch
2nd Clarinet, San Diego Symphony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-05-03 15:12
Hi Maxopf. Thanks for your post. Very interesting. It's difficult to tell from the photos, but does the thickness of the blade of the VK1 reeds vary with the strength? Or perhaps is it the pattern of xylem that create variations in strength?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LostConn
Date: 2023-05-04 02:22
maxopf wrote:
> I had the chance to try/buy some of these today at the Vandoren
> studio in LA, and thought I would offer some initial thoughts.
> . . .
>
> The best ones had a nice core sound, stable pitch and response
> even into the altissimo (though I felt they slightly lost
> quality starting around C above the staff)
That part is a little disappointing, though not too surprising. Why is this range the Achilles heel of synthetic reeds? I like certain aspects of both the Legere Euro Cut and the Venn G2, but they tend to falter in the altissimo. The Legere goes flat and the Venn becomes unresponsive.
> After trying the reeds, the Vandoren representative at the
> studio asked me to answer a short survey about my impressions.
> They seem to be gathering feedback so that they can fine tune
> things.
So some kind of haphazard beta test is still underway? That was my impression after reading about the slow, limited roll-out. Perhaps Vandoren wants to avoid the disastrous fate of the first-generation Venn -- and even the Venn G2 does not seem quite ready for prime time, at least for clarinet. More player input might have helped.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-04 03:53
The problem with the altissimo should be no surprise at all. As you move higher in pitch there is less and less reed vibrating. Cane is still the king when it comes to being compliant and forgiving. Until the synthetic material matches cane on that score, the highest notes (shortest amount of material) will be weakest link.
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-05-04 03:58
My intonation with Legere's was lacking; too low.
I'd be curious what people who've tried Legere's and the new Vandoren synthetic offering think about pitch on each?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: maxopf
Date: 2023-05-04 04:20
JTJC, I didn't notice a difference in the thickness of the blade, though that's not to say that there isn't any. I'm guessing it's in the density of the material rather than the thickness?
LostConn, I find these much better in the altissimo than the Legeres I've tried. They articulate and hold the pitch. It's just that the quality of sound around high B, C felt a bit on the stuffy or duller side for my taste. I guess the plastic material isn't as able to support the increasingly high overtones. It's not a horrible problem to have.
SecondTry, I don't notice pitch issues on the Vandoren. I always felt low on Legeres.
Post Edited (2023-05-04 04:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EricBlack
Date: 2023-06-14 01:26
Hey Everyone!
Just finished editing my review for the VK1's. Now that I'm done, I'm really looking forward to reading through this thread to see what other people think about the reeds! Quickly skimming, it looks like a lot of the major questions have already been asked and answered, but please let me know if you have any questions about anything that hasn't been covered, or I didn't cover in the review!
https://youtu.be/XeTeOhHOx9o
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: senexclarinetta
Date: 2023-06-14 02:22
I like cane on my Bb, but I love the convenience of synthetic on my bass and that it's removed a variable from learning it. If the Vandoren synthetic reed rivals cane I'll check it out. From my perspective it's roughly the cost of a box of reeds, and not having to deal with reeds drying out in the summer outdoor pop season would make me very happy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-14 02:28
The sagging intonation as one moves into the altissimo is troubling. Once you center your pitch with Legere they remain constant in pitch throughout the entire range.
Also on both this latest video and Lowenstern’s I could immediately pick out the Vandoren Kane because the throat notes sound kinda dopey (can’t find a better description).
………….Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Selmer Buff
Date: 2023-06-14 03:48
I do like the Legere synth reeds: 2.50. A good review of VK1 reeds from Earspasm, so I bought a couple: #35 & #40. Let me tell you I'm a rank amateur at this. I love the sound and like to play, but I can't read music worth a damn. Anyway, I can't get 35 to play at all. And the 40 is quite a stiff reed for me. Certain mouthpieces work better than others. My old Morgan works ok, but it is not an 'easy blow' for me. I must position the reed higher than normal. The open tip mouthpieces, B45Lyre, is an absolute no go. 5RV works ok. Different from Selmer Presence to Buffet RC, too. YMMV
Cheers
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-06-14 13:55
Nothing plays like a good cane reed
-for a week or two
-when you find one
-succeed in adjusting it
-the climate conditions stay the same
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2023-06-18 07:36
I totally cleared my life from cane reeds three years ago. All saxophones and clarinets, no cane. And I’m a happy fellow. All saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor and baritone) to Legere American Cut. Bass Clarinet to Legere American Cut Tenor Sax reeds. Eb, Bb, A clarinets to Legere European Cut. Since this thread is about the new VK1 by Vandoren, I will stick with the Bb/A clarinet. Back in the “cane” days, I used Vandoren Rue 56 #3-1/2, as well as V12 #3-1/2. That translated for me to Legere Eurocut #3.25 reeds. Life is wonderful with these. Seeing the Vandoren chart, I figured that I would fit in with a VK1 in a 50. The 50 played good, but was like a Rue 56 #4 reed. So I reordered some 45s. These are very good reeds. Not as wide as the Legere, the tip has a more “real reed” curve, it actually feels like cane, and I must say I like them very much! Good response. Time will tell, and I shall give them a full term test. I hope they remain wonderful!
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-18 14:43
Hey Ken,
I wondered if you find any issues with the resonance in the throat notes. The recorded sounds of the recent examples sound funky.
Also, have you found the pitch to sag in the altissimo to any degree?
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2023-06-18 23:10
Hi Paul,
The throat tones are very even. A lot depends on the horn, too. On the R13, I’ve always used a Chadash barrel, and that cures all ills in the throat tones. Yes, with the stock barrels, and even all my Moennig barrels, a wee bit uneven there. The altissimo seems secure. I use a Fobes “Europa” 2 mouthpiece, it has a more German/Austrian long lay, and it is a great altissimo mouthpiece. With my Fobes 10K-2 I have to reel the altissimo in a bit. Also, the VK1 is very much at home with my Greg Smith “K” mouthpiece, pianissimo to extreme fortissimo, no wobbles at all. Pretty much the same on my Ridenour Aurea clarinets, both A and Bb. The Ridenours really pair well with the Smith mouthpiece and the VK1.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ruben
Date: 2023-06-19 19:15
It's funny that this reed should be available in the US, but not in France, where it is presumably made.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mrdi
Date: 2023-06-22 21:53
Never be a substitute for the horse. Breeding continues to improve in all dimensions dimensions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-22 22:02
Unless you’re Churchill Downs. I think they need substitutes STAT!!!!
………..Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2023-07-04 08:39
I was able to try a bunch of VKs at Vandoren in LA. Probably about 10 of them, 40, 45 50. After hearing Eric Black's video, I was excited. But unfortunately, for me, they were very stuffy. Perhaps I wasn't using a suitable mouthpiece.
With some effort, I could get a nice sound. But still, these 10 reeds had at least as much variation as cane reeds. And actually the most free blowing was the 50. So all around, an odd experience. You really could not just order one and expect it will play like the last you played. I ended up leaving without buying any reeds.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
