 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-03 23:20
What's this business about clarinets becoming " Blownout " all about ?
I'm assuming it's not something that can happen suddenly, making you veer sideways , knocking down your fellow clarinets to go glancing off the tuba and crash head long into the kettle drums !
" Tut-tut !..With a clarinet that old he really should have been wearing a seatbelt !"
No!..but SERIOUSLY .... Is it true that wooden clarinets can lose their tone quality after having been played for a period of years and if so , why does this occur ?
If it's true then there must be a scientific explanation .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-03-04 00:29
Julian:
I suggest you search the board for the term "blown out" and read people's opinion on what this means as the mere existence of such phenomena, what causes it if it in fact exists, and how it is measured seems to be up for debate, in turn forming your own opinion as it regards the existence, cause, and form a blown out instrument takes.
That said, there seems to be *some* consensus that a blown out instrument, if it in fact exists, is one, otherwise in a state of repair, where changes to its bore's dimension have resulted in an instrument that either plays in an unstable fashion, and/or provides inadequate push back to the pulmonary forces its player generates such that changes to things like bells, mouthpieces and reeds don't address the lack of resistance needed to make beautiful music.
As to cause...? Years of play, swabbing, weather, time, gremlins.....???
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-03-04 00:31
Interesting question. I got my first R13 in 1971. In 1978 my prof. while doing my M.M. said it was possibly blown out. I hadn't heard of that before. Now, it was played almost daily during those 7 years. I used my new one from 1979-99 professionally and noticed nothing wrong. My present one is 24 years old and is in fine shape (taking it in for a tune up FIRST TIME
next month). Now, the reason it has had no repair bills over those 24 years is that I only use it for a few concerts each summer and otherwise only practice on it once monthly (use my student model all other days). Perhaps it's like a car-- if there aren't many miles on it it will last a very long time?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2023-03-04 00:34)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-03-04 00:35
Julian ibiza wrote:
> What's this business about clarinets becoming " Blownout " all
> about ?
>
> Is it true that wooden clarinets can
> lose their tone quality after having been played for a period
> of years and if so , why does this occur ?
>
> If it's true then there must be a scientific explanation .
>
So, it's certainly true for some (perhaps many) players. And the explanations go in a number of different directions (in no special order) - worn toneholes, distortions to the bore over time, damage to the bore's surface, dimensional changes, changes in the molecular integrity of the wood and many more. Use the search facility on this BBoard to find volumes of opinion with a little factual content mixed in, some scientific, some not.
Karl
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2023-03-04 02:12
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=473584&t=473537
I had my 1967 R13 rebored a few years ago by Guy Chadash in NYC. I’ve recently been playing this instrument extensively, as my RC Prestige is having work done. It plays wonderfully, with a beautifully centered sound and great intonation, in some ways better than my much newer Prestige.
There is much disagreement about the concept of “Blow Out”, but for me, an instrument that was playing extremely unfocused with dodgy intonation was completely rejuvenated. The majority of symphony players replace their clarinets every ten years or so, I believe largely for this reason. Most players don’t put the sheer number of hours playing on their instruments that pros do, and also, frankly , don’t require the same standards of focus and sound that many professionals need, so this phenomenon is a moot point.
The hard rubber bore now in my upper joint won’t distort over time, as wood will pretty much always do.
AB
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2023-03-04 02:15
Post Edited (2023-03-04 02:17)
AB
Post Edited (2023-03-05 10:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-04 04:27
To the point about scientific evidence, we had (for awhile) access to a Backun video where Morales brought back a horn he’d used for some months and it had a slight response/tuning issue with the LH third finger tone hole. Backun inserted a hand boring tool. Where it stopped, the tool jiggled back and forth indicating that the tone whole had expanded (or contracted) to a more ovate shape. With just a few turns Backun had it round again and Ricardo was happy again. So this sort of thing can happen over time to tone holes and the bore itself. You can (and do) adjust with it over time OR revitalize your set up regularly.
There is the example of placing a live frog in pot of water, setting on the stove and eventually he’ll boil to death without realizing it. Some of us just prefer not to boil.
………….Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-04 11:42
Thank you all .
Those are good answers . And yes !...I'm sure that there has been quite a lot on the subject already posted on this forum I can check out .( will do !)
Making a very precise cylinder out of wood with exacting holes in it and then subjecting it repeatedly to wetting on the inside, and its really a wonder that there exist woods that can remain sufficiently stable for the job . But then " stable" is always a relative term with wood and differs from piece to piece even after equal seasoning treatment .It's my guess that in the same way that identical models can sound different to one another , so too will some of those outwardly identical horns blow out , while others maby not depending on where they were once inside a tree . With string instruments, their tonal quality improves with age ....but that's probable only if you don't fill them regularly with water .
All your comments and examples really go to highlight just how much precision goes into making a good clarinet . I'm always in awe of the art and craftsmanship that goes into musical instrument making. If music is mankind's ( peoplekind's ?) greatest magic.. and I believe it is, then musical instruments are our magic wands .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-04 15:22
Hi Secondtry ,
I found more on this subject on the forum as you suggested .
It seems that " Blow-out" is really just a blanket term for your horn not sounding like it once did and something for which a good tech would probably point to a , or several concrete reasons for and likely be able to repair it ....unless it's all in your head, in which case you can maby find someone to blow smoke over it in a circle of pebbles while muttering incantations . Outside of the wood deforming in some way , I rather doubt that the actual chemistry of the wood is going to change in a way which could diminish tone . At least not if it's like the changes that occur over time in the wood of string instruments .I believe that change is termed " crystallization" and is considered to enhance tone not diminish it .
Becoming deaf is bound to Blow-out your clarinet ( Sorry...just my black humor....Aarg ! )
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-07 22:10
Hi Julian,
I tried once a used RC Prestige. The owner is a known soloist player in Europe, studied at the Julliard.
His RC Prestige sounded worse than a "regular" R13 I bought off eBay.
In addition, the keys, esp. the ring keys were worn out to the underlying metal.
The owner must have practiced 4 (or maybe more) hours a day, for years to wear out the keys. I have only seen such wear on Buffets from 60ies.
I don't know why the sound was poor. Was it from swabbing the bore a million times? Or from exposure to moisture? Maybe he did not swab the instrument after playing. IDK.
Apparently, there are clarinets that lose their play-ability over time. How you'd call them - blown-out or something else is not important, IMO.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2023-03-08 18:04
My both RC Prestiges are from early 1980's. I have been playing them professionally whole the time since then. I happened to try a brand new Buffet a while ago. I would never change to that, so much brighter and livelier my own instruments are. In spite of the fact that both of them have even cracked during their time!
Perhaps a person who wants a dark and soft tone feels that when his instrument gets brighter and more resonant it becomes blown out? Some other may feel that it's played in!
I also feel that the quality of wood is often better in older professional quality instruments than these newer ones.
A worn out keywork and perhaps worn out edges of the tone holes is another issue, but they can all be repaired.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-08 20:18
Jarmo Hyvakko wrote:
> My both RC Prestiges are from early 1980's. I have been playing
> them professionally whole the time since then. I happened to
> try a brand new Buffet a while ago. I would never change to
> that, so much brighter and livelier my own instruments are. In
> spite of the fact that both of them have even cracked during
> their time!...
Hi Jarmo,
I recently had an opportunity to try (very briefly) an older RC Prestige in A (from 90es) that was very much in tune and sounded very nice.
Why one RC Prestige sounds good and another one does not? I don't know.
However, the "good" one did not have any significant wear on the keys, despite being old.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-03-08 21:02
If and when a clarinet becomes "blown out", do you have any suggestions for bringing it back to life? -a miraculous bore-oil, for instance? I have found that giving a clarinet that has been played a few hours a day for years a little rest seems to do it good. I will grant you that the effect may be purely psychologial: actually, you are the one that needs to take a little rest from it.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-09 00:04
I know that Tom Ridenour claims that hard rubber / Ebonite clarinets will never become ' blown-out ' as part of his argument in favor of this material .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris Sereque
Date: 2023-03-09 07:27
If you know of someone who has a bore gauge for measuring the size of the top of the bore of the upper joint, a blown-out instrument will have an enlarged bore at the top. That reduces the resistance of the instrument, but destroys the resonance. Some folks actually prefer the feel of a blown-out clarinet, but they don’t sound as resonant as newer horns.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-09 23:27
That's very interesting Chris , and starting to sound more like a concrete reason to explain the " blown-out" condition .
I think I'm going to go with that one as the most plausible cause, although I expect that other types of deformation of the bore could well also produce the condition .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2023-03-10 17:58
I had a "blown-out" clarinet 15 years ago and so bought a new one. My tech will sell used pro horns if you pay up-front for an overhaul and I did that, the whole 9 yards, including a hot oil treatment. The plan was to sell it and get something else to use as a spare (I had already sold my old spare.)
But I was SO depressed at how well the horn played when I got it back. It was tragic I hadn't had the overhaul done years earlier. And I am still playing it 15 years later. The new horn became my spare and is still pristine.
The only true blow-out that I know of: 20 years ago, the barrel of my A clarinet barrel self-destructed. Not sure what happened - the wood inside the bore just blew apart. I am careful about oiling the wood and keeping them warm, but it looked like a wet instrument was left out in sub-freezing temps. A new, cheap, after-market barrel made it play just like it used to.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-03-10 19:27
Attachment: What-is-a-Blown-out-Clarinet.png (910k)
This is what happened when mine blew out in the middle of a fortissimo passage. This is why I always carry a spare. The lesson here is never blow too hard, and always wear gloves and safety glasses in case of splinters.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2023-03-10 21:10
>a blown-out instrument will have an enlarged bore at the top.
Chris, can you please explain the mechanism of this?
Marcia
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-11 11:23
Gosh Lydian !
Clarinets should really be on that poster they have in security control of things you can't take on the plane. Ha-ha !
" Experts searching the plane wreckage found a twisted trill-key and the mystery of this disaster is now becoming clearer . Voice recordings from the flight-deck had offered no clues to explain the accident as they had been entirely drowned out by Bach ."
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-03-11 13:59
If it is debatable whether clarinets can be blown out, they can definitely be blown up.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-11 15:19
Hi Ralph,
What did your tech do, that was "the whole 9 yards"? It sounds as though it would be very useful to know that.
Also it would be really interesting to know more about what A Brady describes as the horn being "rebored". It sounds as though that really helped.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-11 20:14
Clarinets are purposely made with an expansion in the bore at the top end of the top joint (from around the throat A tonehole upwards) and the barrel bore usually continues this reverse taper. The bore measurement is measured at the narrowest point which is at the middle tenon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris Sereque
Date: 2023-03-11 21:07
Hi Marsha: I wish I could explain, but I suspect that some people’s breath (i.e. mine!) might be slightly acidic and wear the wood away over time. You have to realize how much a busy symphony pro plays in a week, and then multiply it by years. The problem is even more acute with oboes: Nathan Hughs ( former 1st oboe Met Orch, and now Principal Minnesota) was always searching for his next-year-oboe, since they only last one season because of the tiny upper bore. And oboes are so $$$!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-11 23:33
Hi Cris Sereque .
That's an interesting remark about the " acid breath " .
Although I would tend to associate an expansion in the upper part of the upper joint with the high levels of moisture that that area is subjected to , if this was the cause of the expansion then a " blown-out" horn would presumably fix itself after being leaft to dry out long enough .
Whatever causes this expansion deformation , I wonder if frequent treatment with bore oil would help to avert it .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-12 02:24
As I recently said, clarinets are purposely made with an expansion in the bore at the top end of the top joint (from around the throat A tonehole upwards) and the barrel bore usually continues this reverse taper. The bore measurement is measured at the narrowest point which is at the middle tenon.
I'm sure I'll probably have to copy and paste that again soon.
As for 'acid breath', does condensed water vapour from respiration actually contain acid? You better get the litmus papers out to prove/disprove that claim.
Even though oboes have far narrower bores compared to clarinets (a 1:40 taper starting at around 3.9mm at the base of the reed socket), there are still plenty of decades old oboes still in perfectly playable condition and regularly played by orchestral players. Only in the US do they seem to change their oboes every other year - maybe that's more reflective of the US's consumer culture.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-12 12:18
Hi Chis ,
So what you're saying is that the expansion of the bore in the top of the top joint ,is part of the design and that the " blow-out" phenomenon is not down to a further expansion in this area .
In pursuit if dispelling some of the seemingly mythological element that seems to surround the " blown-out" issue , could you sight some things that might result in someone feeling that their horn has become blown-out .
If like cars , some people are scrapping their instruments based on the belief that they are irreparable when in fact this is not the case , then this is a great pity .
Is seems to me that " blown-out" is actually a blanket term for symptoms for which there could be varying diagnosis and possibilities for repair .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-03-12 12:29
Nicholas Daniel recently played Leon Goosens' oboe in a concert. I understand it was the instrument Goosens had played all his professional life. There was an Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment video about it on YouTube. Unlikely Goosens was just lucky picking an instrument that lasted that long.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-13 03:06
The main cause of instruments seeming to be 'blown-out' are shoddy repairs and leaks not being sorted out done to instruments over a certain age by some repairers who have no passion for it.
I know someone with a 1010 and he's constantly taking it to a repairer who charges him a considerable amount with each visit, who only makes it worse each time, uses poor quality pads and doesn't even seat them, yet he gives it all that saying his 1010 is past it and the owner as a result bought a Buffet he's not happy with as he's been caught hook, line and sinker by the repairer's bullsh1t.
What he's spent every single time on pointless repairs is astronomical and none of the problems have even been addressed, but he's not prepared to spend anything on having it completely overhauled to a high standard (even though that's a fracton of what he's already paid out in slap-dash work) as he believes the lies he's been spoonfed by an unscrupulous repairer.
An easy way to see what the potential of any used clarinet with old or damaged pads (or some open cell neoprene covered poor quality cork pads being touted as the best thing ever since sliced bread) is like is to cover all the pads with cling film to get the instrument airtight and then see how it plays if the leaks are eliminated, as well as giving the toneholes a good clean-out if they're all filled with enough dirt to grow potatoes in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-03-13 16:47)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-03-13 03:51
To follow the line that there are changes to the wood over time, I'd say that "blown out" doesn't mean it doesn't work but rather there are changes from how it played originally. We should (and do) adapt to these slow changes by playing a flatter note higher, or playing a more muted note louder etc. It may even be argued that such adaptations could make the connection between musician and instrument even stronger.
The way I see the idea of buying a new set of instruments every ten years is that it is an "insurance policy" that guarantees not having much of an adjustment period if your horn is subjected to theft, loss or some other catastrophic incident. This is much like top players who buy relatively basic mouthpieces from Vandoren simply because they are so replaceable. The fear of fumbling for some period of time is greater than the fear of change (particularly if your salary depends upon it).
..............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-03-13 19:47)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-03-13 04:18
A college clarinet instructor first mentioned the possibility of a clarinet being "blown-out" to me. She couldn't precisely define what she meant by it, but offered only that it had to do with people using silk swabs. Hahaha!
Perhaps "worn out" or "abused" might be better descriptors?
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-03-13 10:55
Clarinets wear out as does everything including this thread!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-13 16:06
Thank you Chris .
Yours strikes me as the most constructive take on this topic so far , because even if it's not the reason behind EVERY case of what people see as " blow-out", it implies that there ARE cases that can in fact be fixed . Cases in which " blown-out" would better describes the cheeks of some under qualified repair person and not the instrument itself .
And thinking about it . I've yet to meet a truly qualified tech or luthier unable to tell you why your instrument doesn't play as it should . Instruments don't get jinxed ! ... They work based on the laws of physics and a skilled crafts person who understands those laws can fix them . It may be that the expense of the repair isn't worth it ......but at least one is dealing with concrete facts .
Behind every good instrument is dedicated science ....even if the prices suggest they were made in a Druidic ritual inside a stone circle on the summer solstice .
( Although I confess that I do see music itself as something truly magical )
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2023-03-13 16:48
Well, there are not many repair persons that can fix:
shrunken bores
widened bores
bore deformations
worn tone hole chimneys
wood detoriations
Some manufacturers like H. Wurlitzer can do a lot to return a clarinet to it's original specs but there comes a point that renewal is the most economical option.
An yes I believe that some clarinets blow-out, especially when have been played a lot. They loose resistance and focus. The sound becomes dull and projection suffers. Some players do not notice, some do.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-03-13 21:26
Thank you Jeroen .
Between Chis's angle and your listing of potential clarinet maladies I think we now have a good profile on the " blow-out" issue for anyone who's interested.
So maybe we've moved from just "blown-out" to " blown-out" because........
In which case people with " blown-out" horns can reasonably expect to get something of a concrete reason if they ask a decent tech , and if they don't get it, then they probably shouldn't be too quick to write off the instrument .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-03-13 21:38
Please send all your blown out clarinets to me, and I'll make sure they're safely and properly disposed of.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-03-14 01:19
Same here - I offer free, humane, safe and above all, environmentally friendly disposal of all blown-out clarinets and oboes from the major makers. Even metal Selmers and Leblancs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GML
Date: 2023-03-14 09:07
There is a repairshop in denmark. They offer "bore restauration" for blown out instruments.
https://clarinet.dk/content/show_content.php?cont=eu&lang=en&instr=cla&id=474
I don't know if this is a reliable method.
Gerhard
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Author: Gary
Date: 2023-03-17 09:15
Well....at age 82, I still play my dad's Selmer b-flat clarinet (Serial #7753) in my local orchestra and concert band (Dad graduated in1930 from U of Cal Berkeley and played it there in the band). People have always commented on the wonderful tone. I think that the serial number indicates manufacture in the late 1920's which means that it is about 96 or so years old. I have had it overhauled a couple of times and had the upper section redone with cork pads and the lower section with neoprene (?) pads. Each time I have had it overhauled, the expert repairmen have commented on what a fine instrument it is. I have tried a couple of Buffet R13's that do not have as nice a tone. When warmed up, I need to pull the original barrel out a little less that 1/8 inch. But it seems to play pretty well in tune across the registers. So.....I guess I have been lucky and have not "blown out" my wooden clarinet.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-18 00:29
Gary wrote:
> ... I still play my dad's Selmer b-flat clarinet
> (Serial #7753) in my local orchestra and concert band (Dad
> graduated in1930 from U of Cal Berkeley and played it there in
> the band). People have always commented on the wonderful tone.
> I think that the serial number indicates manufacture in the
> late 1920's which means that it is about 96 or so years old. I
> have had it overhauled a couple of times and had the upper
> section redone with cork pads and the lower section with
> neoprene (?) pads. Each time I have had it overhauled, the
> expert repairmen have commented on what a fine instrument it
> is... it seems to play pretty well in tune across the registers. So.....I guess I
> have been lucky and have not "blown out" my wooden clarinet.
Hi Gary,
I do not think that every clarinet out there is going to get "blown-out", so maybe yours belongs to the majority of the instruments that will keep playing just fine 100 years (and longer) after they were manufactured.
Many of the pre-R13 Buffets are fine instruments.
Regarding professional players buying new clarinets "every 10 years"- I am not a professional, so it's hard for me to say if that is a 100% true statement.
However, newer models from major makers do play better than the instruments made 10-20 years ago. The newer ones are better tuned, have more even tone and often better ergonomics, so for players who depends on their instrument, it could be almost necessity to "upgrade".
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-03-18 13:24
I have written about "blown out" clarinets in other threads, no need to repeat here what I've already stated. However something occurred to me...
- My "last teacher" was Mr deKant at CCM, a true "old school" player, and he had lots of advice about picking out a clarinet (he considered it fairly essential to pick one from a large sample of at least 15-20 clarinets.
- his advice, which he presented to us as being "standard logic" among his peers, was to pick an instrument that was fairly resistant, as once it was BLOWN IN it would probably lose some of that resistance. If you picked an instrument that felt just right NEW, it would probably become too free blowing after it had broken in.
- I know of several symphony players from the post war era that used the same instruments for very long periods of time, decades even. Maybe instruments chosen using THIS LOGIC tend to last longer?
- Even in the last few years I've played a couple of instruments being sold by top players (including a well known US player/teacher) that were being sold after 3 or 4 years of playing... and lacked resistance and focus- what I describe to my students as a "concentrated sound".
While I didn't ask, I gather these instruments were originally selected for their suitability, not taking into account that they might lose some resistance after they had "broken in".
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