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Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-03-01 21:19

I've been researching a specific clarinet, and found an 1898 or 1899 advertisement for the instrument which indicates the clarinet was offered in either "high pitch" or "international pitch."

I know that A=? fluxuated a lot in the pre-20th century, so I've been trying to figure out what the "international pitch" was in 1898.

Wikipedia says that the French A=435 (set in 1859) was also known as "international pitch" - but that's the only source I have found. Also, the 1859 date is so far removed from the 1898 date - I'm not certain the definition of "international pitch" remained the same.

Could someone recommend other sources/publications which could help me determine the 1898 definition of "internation pitch" (or even "high pitch" for that matter)?

Thanks!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: ruben
Date: 2023-03-02 00:42

I own a Couesnon clarinet from 1892 and the pitch is definitely around 435. What about other countries? I'll research the question because it is very interesting. What pitch were Mulfeld's clarinets when he played Brahms for example? Maybe the curator of the museum that has them could answer us.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-03-02 01:13

I was reading an article earlier in the ICA magazine called "The Albert-System Clarinet: History, Instruments, and Dissemination" by Albert R. Rice. I think the author would know a whole lot about that period. His sources are all listed and might give us some clues. It's in the June 2021 edition.

Jen

Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Soprano Sax American Cut #2, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.

Post Edited (2023-03-02 01:51)

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-03-02 02:06

Thank you both for your responses!

I forgot to mention that the instrument was manufactured in the US.

Jen - on a rather fun note: that's the second time I've run across a reference to Albert R. Rice this week (the other occasion was unrelated to this question)! I'll do a little digging and see if I can find the book you mentioned in the library. Thanks!

Ruben - very interesting to know that your Couesnon is around 435...maybe that answers the question (or at least hints strongly towards it.) I'm not 100% certain how US manufacturers of the time applied the term, but I'll continue digging to see if I find anything. I'm interested in anything you find. Thanks!

The humorous part (to me) is that most collectors I've run across in the US refer to this clarinet as being "High Pitch" (inferring European tuning) or "Low Pitch" (inferring US tuning)...when in fact - for its era - we may very well have the inference backwards!

Fuzzy
;^)>>>

EDIT: I just noticed that I misread your response, Jen, and that you were referring to the title of the article in ICA - not the title of the book. Oops!

Post Edited (2023-03-02 02:21)

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: m1964
Date: 2023-03-03 08:46

When a clarinet is over 100 y. old, it may have bore changed either from exposure to humidity and temp. changes or by a tech/repair person.
It does not necessarily mean it was produced pitched at 435Hz.

I only say that because a few years back I bought a Buffet R13 Prestige A that sounded wonderfully and had a very low resistance but was flat by about 5c all around, in addition to being very unevenly tuned.

The clarinet belonged to the Air Force orchestra before I bought it and probably was stored/transported in less than ideal conditions. Took cutting off the barrel by about 2mm and some very careful adjustments to tone holes in order to bring it to tune somewhat OK.

To Ruben:
Can your Couesnon be played in an ensemble, considering that in Europe most tune to 442?

Thanks

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: Clarimellonet
Date: 2023-03-03 10:08

Jumping in here as a period clarinetist that frequently performs on late 19th century instruments.

The LP and HP designations tended to mean different things to different makers, but using period appropriate mouthpieces, LP clarinets tend to come in around A438-9. With modern clarinet mouthpieces which frequently have slightly larger bores than the top joint (Moennig taper barrels help mitigate that difference in diameter and recenter the pitch, among other things), the pitch can be lower, somewhere around A435-7. I have a set of Buffets from 1880 that I just used for both of the Saint-Saens cello concerti and found that with a wooden Buffet mouthpiece with a bore that matches the top joint, the pitch actually settled in at A439 pretty easily, but that my Ann Arbor Kaspar tuned significantly lower, closer to 435. I suspect if I had Buffets from later in the production run, when they started making super wide bores of around 15.00 mm before going back to smaller bores in the 1950s that my 1880s mouthpiece would have tuned far too sharp to be usable.

As far as Mühlfeld's clarinets, they're cited as playing at around A440, but could probably play a variety of pitches from 437-440. I own a set of Ottensteiners that clock in right at 438, and have played on a couple others in various collections that range from 437 to 443 (the top joint was clearly shortened). It's interesting that many instrument makers in the mid to late 19th century don't specify an ideal pitch (because a lot of cities were slow to adapt "Paris Opera Pitch" so there had to be a range of options), but were pretty adamant that the instruments would be tuned at 19 degrees Celsius. Given the lack of reliable heating, 19 degrees seems like a good basis for "room temperature" at the time, and knowing what we all do about pitch rising with temperature, I could imagine that 435 was a goal pitch for Mühlfeld's instruments but that in the modern day and with more than a century and a half of time between when they were built, the overall pitch has risen, particularly when played in a controlled and heated environment. We actually have a great letter from the Meiningen clarinet section to Ottensteiner complaining about intonation on the instruments and Ottensteiner's response that they just needed to practice.

Thomas Carroll
Historical Clarinets and Chalumeaux
http://carrollclarinet.com
lotzofgrenser@gmail.com

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Re: Concert Pitch A=? in 1898

Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-03-03 20:11

Thomas,

Thanks so much for the response! The portion where you address mouthpieces is very interesting to me, and touches on a theory I had - that my modern mouthpieces could be effecting the true pitch of the instrument.

I have been unable to find a decent mouthpiece from the era, as many of them are wood and have cracked, warped, etc.

In my case. The instruments can be brought up to pitch using a modern mouthpiece...with practice - except for the "full length" notes where the entire length of the instrument is used ( [E3]

, etc.) - for these, I play flat and can't quite get the pitch up to where it should be. Not as noticeable on [E3]

, but much more noticeable on [C5]

. I tried playing with short barrels and such, but that just messed up the tuning elsewhere. My thought was that a change in mouthpiece might help.

If I understand what you said, then a period mouthpiece might indeed bring the pitch up? What are your thoughts?
Can you recommend any specific sources for vintage mouthpieces?

Thanks!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>

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