 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orichic
Date: 2016-11-15 07:38
I'm playing on an Old Buffet R13 with an M13 mouthpiece in my college band. Problem is that it is always playing super flat and can never get it to be in tune or even sharp.
The reeds I play on are Primarily V12 Size 3 and occasionally Grand Concert Select Evolution Size 3. My question is if I upgrade the Barrel to lets say a Buffet ICON 66mm, could it possibly fix the flatness of the instrument? Current barrel is completely stock with R13 with no Serial Number.
I'm planning already on purchasing V21 size 3.5 but I don't think that alone will fix the insane flatness of my instrument. If anyone has suggestions I'm open to listen to any.
Side note, I'm having to dangerously bite really hard with my bottom teeth in order to raise the pitch, even then however, it is still a little bit flat and biting in this way is limiting my sound so it is not something I wanna get used to doing.
I also have to play a Clarinet Klezmer style Solo and my college band professor even asks me why It is so flat, even when warmed up and everything pushed all the way in. A question I have no clear answer to.
Decade long Clarinet Player currently in college studying Music Education
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2016-11-15 08:11
How long is the barrel you have? R13 Bb clarinets generally have come with a 66 mm barrel. Often they're marked at the bottom of the back (180 degrees opposite the logo). Sometimes not. If not marked, measure it.
If you can bite the pitch up (even if it's still flat) without closing the reed, I would doubt fiddling with reed strengths will improve the pitch. You need to play with a strength that's comfortable on your mouthpiece. A 3.5 V21 probably will work on your M13, but keep in mind that jumping from a Grand Concert #3 to a V21 #3.5 is a little more of a leap than going to a #3.5 Grand Concert. I think Vandorens tend to run harder.
What is "super flat?" Can you check it on a tuner and be more specific about how flat you are? Is the clarinet flatter in some areas of the range than others, or uniformly flat?
Karl
Post Edited (2016-11-15 13:27)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-11-15 08:20
>> if I upgrade the Barrel to lets say a Buffet ICON 66mm, could it possibly fix the flatness of the instrument? Current barrel is completely stock with R13 with no Serial Number. <<
It's possible but extremely unlikely, especially if your current barrel has the standard 66mm length.
>> with an M13 mouthpiece <<
AFAIK the M13 is only available in the low pitch 13 series version which is purposely made to play lower. You can try a non-13 series mouthpiece and see if it's better.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-15 09:47
M13's always tune flat. They are made to tune to 440. It sucks.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Wes
Date: 2016-11-15 11:34
One of my clarinets is a 1971 R13 that came with a 66 mm barrel. It works fine with a 65 mm Chadash barrel, but was too flat with the original barrel.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2016-11-15 18:04
Ask the college clarinet professor if you can try a few shorter barrels, most clarinet professors have boxes full of them. Try 64 and 65 mm barrels.
I used to own a 1972 model which played perfectly on a (stock) 64mm. My newer ones, 66mm.
Also try a non 13- series mouthpiece as stated above.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Burt
Date: 2016-11-15 22:42
A shorter barrel will raise the throat tones much more than the long fingerings (such as third line B and low E). If your problem is most severe in the throat tones, the shorter barrel (or having your mouthpiece cut shorter) will help.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2016-11-15 23:19
13-series mouthpieces were made to cope with "European" R13 models.
However, I have that hunch that somewhen in the murky past, "export" R13s have been supplied with extra long barrels to compensate for pitch differences without having to resort to a special mouthpiece.
The combination of the two might be too much of a well-meant thing.
Try a shorter barrel or a normal mouthpiece (plastic suffices for a proof of concept), or move to a country that has A=435 or somesuch, but I fear this would require some dexterity in operating a time-travelling apparatus.
--
Ben
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-11-16 05:32
One of the community bands I play in, after warm-up and during tuning before the last concert, I found the pitch center to be 437! How do you deal with this? Of course, most of the problem may be old geezers like me, that have many of the problems of beginners, that is, poor breath support and flabby embouchure.
A shorter and/or different taper might fix your flatness. If the barrel bore has swollen and is undersized, the instrument will play flat, although I think it would have to change quite a bit.
I occasionally play a Yamaha 650 with a plain Vandornen 5RV (I know, I know!). The Yamaha is quite sharp in the throat tones (440 tuning) with the stock 65mm barrel. A dig thru my shoe box and an old 66mm, smaller/cylindrical bore Selmer barrel did the trick. Using Legere Signature reeds, this is now the best setup I have used ... hold, timbre, tuning and high note accessibility are better than all the others. Go figure. I may just have a freak 5RV ... Of course, next week, things my change ...
I played a Bay H1 MO/ML for years, that was unusable with a Moenig or other barrel with similar bore specifications, but the stock Buffet barrel made it all work.
So, borrow and test drive a few barrels.
Tom
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-16 07:10
Between Buffet's newer R13's and the Vandoren M series mouthpieces you need a 64mm Buffet barrel to tune at 440 or above on an "A" clarinet. Too many mistakes from both companies. The older R13's, before 1974 or somewhere around there had the smaller bore and a 66mm barrel was perfect. Often you had to pull out just a shade. With a 66mm barrel you'd be tuning to 437 or so, maybe 438, great for the old school of playing in the 1930's in Philadelphia.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2016-11-18 07:05)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2016-11-16 07:33
It might be your specific mouthpiece. The orchestra I play with stays firmly at 440 and I have had no trouble using a 2000s R13 and an M13lyre. I generally recommend the mouthpiece for students but have experienced one case where the mouthpiece played low. For the student, a 64mm barrels solved the problem but I have had many students use the mouthpiece with a 66mm barrel without issue.
A strength 3 reed is way too light for such a closed mouthpiece. I find a 3.5+ or 4 to be much more appropriate. You should try some to see if it gets up to pitch. Lower resistance means lower pitch. Vandoren themselves recommend at least a 3.5
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-16 19:19
I agree that 440 is kind of the magic tuning number. But here is the issue. The Buffet R13's clarinets, the later models post 1974's and the Vandoren M series mouthpieces, these guys don't get it. The upper registers go flat. Trust me on this, unless of course you've changes barrels. If you are using the standard issued R13's you WILL go flat with the M series Vandoren M series above high D or E. G may be in tune depending on the fingerings you use. F will be flat. The flutes and oboes go sharp, above 440. The newer flutes and oboes have changed too. They have gotten brighter sounding and sharper in the upper register and the clarinets have gotten darker, not warmer. A huge difference. I'll write a NEW TOPIC about this in a minute. The mouthpiece mold I'm making will hopefully help this, by changing the bore of the mouthpiece and making the mouthpiece shorter. It's a $2500 gamble. I hope I'm right, but I've done my homework and I think I'm right. Spent some time over at Caltech working on this.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: echi85
Date: 2016-11-16 22:20
I have used an M13lyre, M15, and B40lyre in orchestra with zero intonation problems. I did play a 66mm Chadash barrel on my Bb which helps even out the intonation. However, I must say that when I play my stock barrel, the pitch of the high notes is still fine. I suspect there are two things at play.
1.) As with any mass manufacturer of mouthpiece, certain mouthpieces are better than others. I'm sure there are a few mouthpieces on the shelves right now that are unusable due to defects in manufacturing. I went through about 6-8 of each of the models I own before I chose one I liked.
2.) You have to play hard reeds with a close tip. In my experience, if someone is playing really flat, there is almost always an equipment imbalance. If I played a 3 reed on an M13Lyre, I would be flat too.
I have had a lot of success with students using an M13Lyre on a newish R-13. The last I checked Burt Hara and Greg Raden both use the same setup. I'm positive they play in tune.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2016-11-18 07:20
Marks Music has a pile of 1960's horns, but you need connections to get one. Then you have to pay the same price as the present R13's. Added to the problem you need someone that has a good ear to pick out one or a set, deal with repearing the dry wood with special oils and then they may not work! It's a big gamble, but if you find that special new horn, never played on you may have a gem. You surely need a Good Moennig barrel. These are all 1960's horns. But they could all be useless and you need to trust that person who's testing them. It could take 2 months of playing before you know if you got that gem.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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