 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-24 21:17
As many know, when making outdoor products out of wood, it's often best to use pressure treated lumber. For those who don't know, and as a very cursory explanation of same, such wood is placed into a pressurized environment, and chemicals are applied to it to resist its decomposition, usually from insects, prior to its purchase. The pressure, as the story goes, and at least as I understand it, helps get such chemicals deeper into the wood, therby increasing the woods longevity.
For those tempted to take "thread tangents" discussing the dangers of such wood, old methods of doing this using arsenic have been replaced by many countries, for over a decade now, with products recognized as safer like aluminum copper quartenary. Still more, the swingset your kid plays on is no less dangerous if untreated rotted wood compromises its structure, arsenic treated or not, and naturally resisitant woods like teak would make your swingset cost "$10,000."
But widely do I digress.
With this said, are wood clarinets subject to similar pressurization, only as it pertains to their exposure to bore oils, rather than insect toxins? Might this be a good idea if they're not (granted with all hardware off the clarinet first)?
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-24 21:45
I'd like for this planet to get a handle on growing quality hardwoods, like we had 100 years ago ... we might have an 80 year wait, but our great-grand kids can reap the fortunes of our foresight and investment.
I usually prefer non-wood clarinets, but would like to see the option of traditional materials for all. Maybe by the time I am 140 years old, I can purchase a beautiful clarinet with perfect wood, if we act now. What does it take?
For the meantime, hard rubber, plastics, composites or perhaps clear resin encapsulated wood may have to suffice.
I've not had anyone respond on the situation with softer hardwoods ... How is the supply and quality of Cocobolo and Rosewood, for example?
And, you may have a good point in exploring new techniques of wood treatment, conditioning and curing.
Tom
Post Edited (2015-02-24 21:48)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-24 22:57
I did see decades ago tubs full of oil in which the grenadilla billets were being soaked at the Selmer factory in Elkhart. I think they were open tubs and not under any kind of pressure, and the oil bath was a very long one - months, as I remember. It was a long time ago so memory may be dimmed.
I don't know that pressure-treating the billets per se would be more effective than such a long-term soak, but I wonder if they do either these days as they try to push out instruments to meet the demanded volume.
Too, the lumber that's pressure-treated is so treated because it isn't naturally very resistant to rot or insects. Woods like cedar and white oak, as I understand it, are more durable and used untreated in outdoor applications because they are harder and more decay-resistant to begin with. Grenadilla, again as I understand it, is one of the hardest woods available, so may not need the degree of protection that softer woods do.
Karl
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Author: oian
Date: 2015-02-24 23:28
I understand that some "unstable" woods such as burls etc. are infused under pressure with a stabilizing resin for knife handles etc.. This is not done for rot or insect resistance, but to just stabilize the wood. I don't know if this would be possible with a dense wood such as grenadilla, or if it would change the acoustic qualities in a negative manner. Have any of the manufacturers considered the possibilities? It seems that (if practical) it might be a better than wood dust and resin (Greenline ?). Such wood would have the strength of the original wood with the long term stability and water resistance of the resin treated wood.
John
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-24 23:32
There is a video of the Schreiber factory which shows large tanks that look very much like a pressure cookers where I assume they immerse grenadilla billets in oil under pressure.
Watch it from 1:00 - only it doesn't show them being taken out from the tanks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqz92VlnnCE
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: oian
Date: 2015-02-24 23:53
Wood can be treated by resin infusion. This is done for some unstable woods (Burls etc. and knife handles) This is a process of using pressure or vacuum to infuse the wood with a resin, not for insect or rot resistance, but for stability and moisture resistance. I don't know if this would be practical with a very dense wood like Grenadilla, or if it would adversely effect the acoustic qualities. This method would keep the original strength of the wood (unlike wood dust and resin; "Greenline") while adding stability and moisture resistance. This might not practical for an uncut block of wood, but how about treatment of a rough cut blank before final machining? If possible this would address The actual problems of a wooden instrument(water resistance and stability). I don't think rot resistance requiring toxic chemicals is one of our major problems.
John
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Author: oian
Date: 2015-02-25 00:11
Pressure treating for rot resistance and insect damage with toxic chemicals is not what we need in a wooden musical instrument. Woods can be treated by pressure/vacuum infusion of resins to stabilize and increase the water resistance of woods. Thisis what we do need. Whether it would be possible in very dense woods like Granadilla or Cocobolo I don't know. if it is possible it would retain the original strength of the wood (unlike the wood dust/resin/carbon fiber of "Greenline). The other question is, would it adversely effect the acoustics (probably not any more than resin and dust as in Greenline). It might even be better to treat a rough cut blank before final hole cutting etc. than a whole block of wood. Just think of it, a moisture/temperature stable Granadilla instrument!
John
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2015-02-25 00:12
The craftsmen who made my old clarinets are said to have stored their blanks for decades. Over here small quality workshops still today claim their woods to be stored for many years ("langjährig"). Indeed I find, if any, only scarce hairline cracks (typically at the lower joint's upper end) in these hand made clarinets from the 1930 to 1990ties in contrast to frequent accounts in this forum about cracks in modern instruments.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2015-02-25 01:01
Theo Wanne uses resin-impregnated wood for his wooden mouthpieces which he refers to as "Stable Wood". But there is another process which yields Thermally Modified Wood — one of the manufacturers calls their product "Stabilwood". The process, used primarily on softwood but possible with any species, is said to weaken the wood but I think this would only be a problem in structural applications where bending stress might occur. Apparently shrinking and swelling are reduced 50% - 90%.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-25 02:33
Kilo,
Any word on whether Theo Wanne is coming out with a wooden version of the GAIA clarinet mouthpiece?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Jamnik
Date: 2015-02-25 03:05
I'm not certain but pressure treated lumber is done under pressure due to time constraints. Clarinet billets are soaked for who knows how long as Karl mentioned. San Francisco Fire Dept. has log books showing ages for all of the wood that is seasoned prior to making or repairing ladders. The wood is monitored for years before it can be used. You'd think SF would just go ahead and raise all of the power lines so they could join the 21st century with aluminum and steel ladders. I bet we will see clarinets that are pressure treated before long just to speed the manufacturing process up! I guess you could say that the Buffet Greenlines are all pressure treated.
Jamnik
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2015-02-25 07:06
Why is Grenadilla soaked in oil? It might be for curing, but I thought it might also be to improve machineability.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-25 14:04
You probably get a skewed idea of how many instruments crack from reading here. Nobody posts "my clarinet hasn't cracked".
Conversely, the old ones that cracked were probably thrown out years ago.
MichaelW wrote:
> The craftsmen who made my old clarinets are said to have stored
> their blanks for decades. Over here small quality workshops
> still today claim their woods to be stored for many years
> ("langjährig"). Indeed I find, if any, only scarce hairline
> cracks (typically at the lower joint's upper end) in these hand
> made clarinets from the 1930 to 1990ties in contrast to
> frequent accounts in this forum about cracks in modern
> instruments.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-25 14:19
My early clarinet is made from boxwood that was stored for 30 years prior to use. It was vacuum impregnated with tung oil during manufacture.
When the wood was put in the oil bath and vacuum applied the wood 'fizzed' as air was drawn out (there was a perspex top on the tank). The wood was left there for 24 hours. When we cut a test piece after treatment we could see that the oil had penetrated 2 or 3 mm.
I would be interested to know how vacuum treatment compares with pressure treatment. One is pulling air out and the liquid presumably replaces it. The other is forcing liquid in. Perhaps alternating the two would be the ideal approach.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-25 14:24
eddiec wrote:
> Why is Grenadilla soaked in oil? It might be for curing, but I
> thought it might also be to improve machineability.
My boxwood clarinet was oil treated after the majority of machining had been done so purely for stability in that case.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2015-02-25 20:16
Apparently it is still common practice for (maple) bassoons to get an oil soak when manufactured.
http://bit.ly/1LDpAzU
http://bit.ly/1JM5AQ2 see point 7
Fox has an essay on bassoon oiling http://www.foxproducts.com/pdfs/BassoonBoreOiling.pdf which also says:
"Maple, unlike grenadilla, does not have a high level of resin. The high resin content of grenadilla seals the wood against air leakage and reduces moisture
penetration into the body. Without this resin maple bodied bassoons are vulnerable to moisture damage and can literally leak air through the body."
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-25 20:28
I have a friend here in Oz who makes didgeridoos. He uses native timbers, mostly acacia and some eucalypts, and he seals the bore using a proprietary deck sealer used in the marine industry. Don't think he's ever had one crack, but he burned some rejects on a campfire and they burned very well. Don't recommend it for bassoons though. 
Tony F.
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Author: oian
Date: 2015-02-26 02:43
Sorry about the triple post. When I posted then checked the thread nothing was there so I re-posted. I'm not that proficient of a clarinet player, but it seems that I'm a better player than poster!!
John
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-03-10 17:54
I doubt the process makes the wood "dense" enough to be a practical instrument wood.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2015-03-10 18:56
I wondered that as well, and don't have sufficient information to know if they can treat denser wood. "Kebony Maple" (which I assume is treated pine) is measured as being 30% harder than ipê — and if you've ever worked with that stuff you know what "hard" is!
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