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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-20 08:16
Hello,
Some background:
In my first year of playing clarinet in middle school, I didn't take private lessons, and I never really learned proper embouchure formation. I ended up bunching up my chin and taking in way too much lower lip.
After a year, I began lessons with a private teacher and asked about my embouchure, having realized that it wasn't exactly standard, but his opinion was that I shouldn't mess with it since I got a good tone and it wasn't posing any issues with the music I was playing. So until the end of my freshman year in high school, I continued to play with this embouchure, and still managed to be successful with it, making 1st chair in my school band and local youth orchestra.
However, a year ago I began lessons with my current teacher (who plays professionally) and moved on to more demanding solo and orchestra repertoire. After about half a year, she and I began began to realize that my bunched up embouchure was causing some issues with biting, sluggish articulation, and sharpness (which wasn't evident until I began more difficult music), and I asked her to help me switch my embouchure to the more standard flat chin embouchure.
At the start of summer break about 4 months ago, I was really able to focus my practice time on fixing my embouchure (as well as tackling other, smaller bad habits in my air support and technique), and the change has made a huge positive difference in my tone and articulation. The issue is that now, no matter how much I practice long tones, take breaks, practice in shorter intervals, etc., my embouchure tends to revert somewhat after playing for a while (anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes into a rehearsal or practice session.) This gets very irritating during 3-hour-long youth orchestra rehearsals. My chin no longer bunches up like it did before I changed my embouchure, but my lower lip bunches up and I start biting which negatively affects my sound. I'm going to discuss this with my teacher at my lesson tomorrow, but in the meantime, does anyone have any experience with these habits, or any bad embouchure habits in general, that won't seem to go away? How did you manage to get rid of these habits?
(I've just started practicing with a mirror by the way - I'm hoping this will make me more aware of any embouchure movement.)
Post Edited (2014-09-20 08:21)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-20 14:32
Changing long standing habits is HARD WORK. You need to realize that it will take time and constant reinforcement of the new posture.
It might help to consider what the flat chin is doing. The flat chin itself is a result of working to get the lower lip as flat, thin and smooth as possible.
Also, from where I sit, the embouchure is only about 10% of what gives you your sound. The rest is making sure your air is supported, focused and fast.
The mirror is a GREAT idea. Seeing what is going on is very important.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-09-22 04:51
Are your reeds balanced? Do you know how to adjust them? Your teacher should be able to help you. Are your reeds too hard? When a reed is unbalanced or too hard, playing is an uncomfortable and tiring experience.
Another thing to consider is your mouthpiece. I knew someone who had a story similar to yours. She was using a fairly closed mouthpiece (I don't recall which one), and her embouchure was constantly getting tired. She tried a number of different reeds and reed strengths, but her picture-perfect flat chin embouchure would always collapse after a few minutes. She decided to switch mouthpieces, and settled on a Vandoren B-45 with Vandoren traditional 2 1/2 reeds. That isn't a combination I would use, but she got great results with it--and no more embouchure fatigue. If the mouthpiece is the issue, you might want to try out a number of different ones with a variety of tip openings and facings.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-22 07:11
@ Paul Aviles: Thanks for the advice. Air support is also something I've been working on, since I also was never taught proper air support when I started out in middle school.
I figured out I had an issue with air support when I took my first couple of lessons with my current teacher and tried to play through the Mozart Clarinet Concerto 3rd movement, only for her to point out that the staccato passages were extremely sluggish because I was trying to use a little burst of air on every 16th note. My tonguing speed has probably doubled since I learned how to simply support a continuous airstream and interrupt it with my tongue.
@ clarinetguy: I know how to do some really basic reed adjusting and I have a couple of reed tools, but I use them pretty minimally since I don't know much beyond the basics. I will talk to my teacher about this. Most of the reed work I've done just involves breaking them in.
As for the mouthpiece: I'm really happy with the sound I'm getting on my current mouthpiece and reed setup (assuming my embouchure is cooperating), so I would be pretty hesitant to change anything, but I suppose I could try softer reeds for a while as my embouchure strengthens. I don't think the mouthpiece is the issue though.
When I started taking lessons with my current teacher, I was playing on a Vandoren M13 Lyre with Vandoren V12 size 4 reeds (too resistant of a combination, looking back. Undoubtedly caused some of the bad habits I had, especially my biting tendency.)
My teacher actually recommended that I switch from the more open M13 Lyre to a more closed mouthpiece (the Fobes CWF), and I prefer the free-blowing nature and the overtone rich sound of the CWF. The M13 Lyre sounds sort of dull in comparison. I'm currently using Pilgerstorfer Dolce 4.5 reeds (the numbering they use is different; they feel more like Vandoren V12 3.5+s or 4s.)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-22 08:22
Attachment: IMG_1475.jpg (213k)
Attachment: IMG_1479.jpg (251k)
Thought I might post some pics of exactly what's going on. The first picture was taken at the beginning of a 30 minute practice session; the second pic was taken at the end. (Note that the collapse is usually pretty sudden. It probably stayed more or less like picture 1 for 20-25 minutes.)
It seems like my corners come back, my jaw comes up and my lip bunches up. I'm almost certain this has something to do with the corners of my mouth giving out.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-22 10:08
Wow when you said "corners" I nearly jumped out of my seat! The photo seems to confirm a sort of (though I hate to say it) 'smile.' If there is a concerted effort on your part to pull "UP" on the sides of your mouth and yet you are working your lips to prevent 'leaking,' then my guess would be that you are straining unnecessarily (two groups of muscles working in opposition).
For the sides of you mouth, what you do is engage the "cheek muscles" or buccinators. If you ever tried to get a really thick chocolate shake (or Wendy's Frosty) through a straw - those are the muscles I'm talking about. Only with clarinet you blow out (of course). So, for about a half inch of you face past the ends of you lips this area should be firm and pressing IN. One teacher described it as the formation you'd use to pronounce the French sound "oooo" as in the word goo (the French kinda put an 'eeee' in there too by the way).
So.......NO CORNERS !!!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-22 12:37
i would also show a picture of you smiling without the clarinet. show your teeth as well because i have had a friend that has had an underbite and she kinda had the same problems as you are.
https://www.tcnj.edu/~mckinney/embouchure1.1.jpg
look at that image, that might help with what you are tying to do.
hope this helps,
lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-23 03:00
It's interesting that you pointed out the smile. I've been trying very hard not to smile, but maybe I'm doing something that counteracts that and ends up making me smile when I get tired. I'll work on it.
I showed my teacher the photos, and she wrote me back "It sounds like you are over involving the corners of your embouchure if they are tiring after only 30 minutes so try to stay relaxed."
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-23 03:11
I would still say it's more of a "drawing in, and down" rather than relaxing. But the key element is to make sure only one muscle group is doing the action. You don't want to have one group working against the other - you're wearing out through muscle strain.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-23 06:21
Interesting. Just out of curiosity, I tried relaxing the corners of my mouth and my lower lip, and I was able to practice for at least an hour. Perhaps it was just a combination of trying too hard and using the wrong muscles.
We'll see if I run into any problems with my embouchure the way it is now, but it seems like maybe I've solved my problem.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-09-23 17:58
I'm fed up with reading this silly refrain that 'muscles working against each other' is necessarily counterproductive. I get it from Ken Shaw, I now get it (surprise, surprise) from Paul Aviles.
Delicately balanced opposition of muscles is very often what is required for precise control. It's as though these people don't realise that the flexion of each of a pair of opposing muscles in quasi-equilibrium can vary from almost nothing to a maximum.
Imagine flexing your biceps, like a body-builder. You can do that (opposing with your triceps) a tiny bit, a bit more, a lot, or as much as you possibly can.
Likewise, you can smile a tiny bit, a bit more, a lot – or in a rictus.
So, stop talking rubbish, will you? You get people worried about something simple BY TELLING LIES ABOUT IT.
OF COURSE you don't want maximum opposition for the most part. (Very occasionally, actually, you DO.) But making that clear is very different from telling people that they MUST BE maximally relaxed.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-09-26 10:19
After going back and reading your original post. I believe it is possible that your embouchure is becoming tired because of your choice of reed. The Pilgerstorfer Dolce 4.5 is fairly thick, and even on a very close facing like the Fobes CWF, it may be tiring to blow over a sustained period. When I play my Fobes CWF, I prefer to use a slightly lighter cut of reed; the Peter Leuthner French Cut (also available from Fobes) in a #3 works fine for me or a #3 Reserve Classic. Also you might try lightening the Pilgerstofers using Ridenour's system or some other method. Fobes CWF has a nice overtone profile with a good balance of darkness and ping that a lighter reed might favor.
At least test the "hard reed lip fatigue" hypothesis a bit before you look elsewhere for a solution.
One way to avoid lip soreness is to practice with a reed a little softer than you will want for your performance. This is especially useful if you are trying to practice for 2 or 3 hours or more in one stretch. Use your harder reed for maybe 45 minutes to an hour, and then give your lips a break by switching to a slightly softer reed. Over the long haul, this will give you more endurance and lip flexibility than practicing long hours every day on a hard reed.
Post Edited (2014-09-27 05:05)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-26 14:49
Attachment: McLane-1930s-725x1024.jpg (134k)
Well, actually I wouldn't say relaxed in this case (far from it) but I only wish to advocate NOT having one set of muscles that you DON'T want to use, being put against a set of muscles that you DO want to use.
I am trying to enclose a photo of Ralph McLane. In it you can see what I am talking about.......and quite the stylish hair too I might add.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-27 03:24
Ok, I'm pretty certain I've figured it out. The solution was along the lines of what Paul Aviles, Tony Pay and my teacher had been saying about muscular over-involvement.
Ever since I had switched to a flat-chin embouchure, I had been trying to contort my mouth muscles in weird ways to get a "perfect looking embouchure," since I just assumed there must be a great amount of pretty forced muscular involvement.
However, through this post and talking to my teacher, I discovered that I was just overcomplicating things. In the last couple of days I've forced myself to revert to a really basic embouchure (around half of the bottom lip over the bottom teeth, pull in in your lips like you're saying the letter Q, that's it) and the fatigue problem has essentially gone away and my sound has not become any worse (if anything it's gotten better.) I was just creating unnecessary tension.
@seabreeze: I will try that as well. So far I've really liked the sound I've gotten with the Pilgerstorfers, and with my "fixed" embouchure they don't seem to be causing too much fatigue, but I'll give some lighter reeds a try.
Originally I played V12 4s on the CWF (this is what my teacher plays, though I think she adjusts them pretty heavily), but I found the Pilgerstorfer 4.5s to feel a little softer and liked the tone I got with them better.
After breaking in four reeds at a time (my case holds 8, and I always have one set of four that's about 2-3 weeks older than the other four), I put them in my reed case and order them by strength, with slot 1 being the softest of the bunch, slot 4 being the hardest, etc. Sometimes I do what you describe, using the softest ones if I have to get through a really long school band or orchestra rehearsal. I'll try doing that more often.
Post Edited (2014-09-27 03:32)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-27 04:23
Attachment: Embouchure.jpg (123k)
Here's a pic of the embouchure I just talked about. Visually it isn't too different from what I was doing before, but it feels completely different.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-09-27 04:48
To Paul's collection of "poster children" for the non-strained, pointed-chin embouchure, I would add Julien Herve of the Rotterdam Philharmonic. Watch the Youtube videos of him on full screen playing the Poulenc Sonata and the Schumann Fantasy Pieces. Everything is tucked in very neatly with just the right amount of tension and pressure to do the job.
Post Edited (2017-07-31 22:53)
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-27 05:23
I'll look him up.
Thanks to everyone you for the advice!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-09-27 07:49
Though it appears you've pretty much solved your problem, Max, you – or anyone else – might find it worthwhile to read the following 'descriptive' (not prescriptive) post about what an embouchure DOES:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
Given people's very different physical makeups, trying to copy what someone else 'looks like' has always seemed to me to be a strange way to go about it.
Rather, get a clear idea of what doing the job involves – and here, the crucial and in my view understressed idea is that of real-time FLEXIBILITY – and then experiment with doing it until you feel and sound comfortable. This takes time, of course, because variation in reed and mouthpiece suitability confuses the issue.
It's perhaps worth saying (amongst adults) that the oft-touted notion that 'the embouchure should not move' is simply a first-order approximation that allows second-order flexibility its elbow-room.
Tony
Post Edited (2014-09-27 08:36)
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