 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-28 19:16
I'm intereted in doing my own informal questionaire as to whether people think that having a left pinky Eb/Ab level on their clarinets is important, and how much price difference they might be willing to pay for it.
I have zero affiliation with anyone in the music business. This is purely asked as a matter of interest, whose answers are (of course) available to all clarinet makers with presence on this bboard.
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Most of all have already learned the techniques necessary to deal with the fact that most clarinets provide only a right pinky lever to enable opening of the tone hole to effect a low Ab or mid range Eb. Whether we've
* slid off this key down to its F#/C# neighbor to effect a consecutive note to an Eb/Ab with the same right pinky, so as to enable the next note to be played with the left pinky, so that we may return back to a Eb/Ab with the original right pinky.
* or whether we've learned to switch pinkies mid note to set ourselves up to playing a right pinkied Eb/Ab (e.g. Sphor #1, 1st mvmt, or Cadenza to Messenger's Solo De Concours) , like in the above example, right after having just played a bunch of "pinky notes" after an initial Eb/Ab.....
clearly, solutions to having only one Eb/Ab level exist. Many professional players remain with (and continue to purchase new) instruments like Buffet's R13 over higher end models that feature this key (in addition to low note correction) even perhaps where they'll spend money for the best equipment.
So, how important is this key to you? Would you trade your old clarinet in to get one with this feature? Do you think it might help enormously with sight reading, knowing you'll never be stuck unable to play a note just because you played the prior one with the wrong pinky? Or do you think that reading ahead is just one of those things clarinet players need to do anyway, and can learn the patterns of notes that make the above techniques necessary.
(I think I may write a simple etude that highlights these concepts--unless if someone knows of one already.)
It's my guess that people will think it a "nice to have," but not a deal breaker accessory, maybe not unlike the difference between two relatively equally paired ligatures. But I'm curious to know.
Maybe having this feature got someone the job because they didn't mess up the sight reading.
Maybe others think its so rare in the repetiore that it's not worth it to train much for it, or solve the issue with hardware.
What do you think?
Post Edited (2014-03-29 04:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-28 23:39
It gets in the way. When I am using a Prestige, I remove this key.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-03-28 23:50
Stanley Drucker showed me that took his LH Eb key off his Prestige clarinet.
He said something to the effect that he never needed it during his entire career so there was no need to learn to use it now.
...GBK
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-03-28 23:50
If you are comfortable with this lever then it's a useful addition (been on full Boehms for over 100 years but only started to enter mainstream in recent years).
If it gets in the way then better off without it. I have clarinets with and without this lever and find it not particularly comfortable so tend to avoid.
The german system players seem to have managed quite well without most alternate pinky keys for a long time.
I seem to recall there is useful passage in Zampa overture if you want to practice key sliding/swapping versus the additional LH lever.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-29 00:01
Oehler systems have a LH Ab/Eb lever next to the LH Bb/F key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris_C ★2017
Date: 2014-03-28 20:09
I use the LH Eb on my Selmer 9 Full Boehm more than I use the RH.
However, I confess it wasn't a factor in buying the instrument - I just had the chance to buy a decent secondhand instrument for a low price and it came with a ton of extra metalwork....
A bit off topic, I suppose - equally often I use the RH bottom Eb with the speaker key to make a Bb that sounds better than the throat one - Thanks to Chris P for introducing me to that, and I've pointed it out to a number of alto and Eb bass players since then...
The other alternative I have had done is to remove the LH sliver key for Eb (I think! - it's been so long since I used it) removed - I have fat fingers so I used to catch it by accident all the time and sqeak horribly. I reckon if taking it off was good enough for Artie Shaw then it might help me play like him....
Chris
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-03-28 20:16
I think it's nice to have, but don't think the prestige clarinets get a $1,500 dollar bump because of it. For some, they like the qualities and the LH eb/ab is simply a bonus. lucky I got a prestige in high school and i advocate the use of the LH eb/ab. It's a personal preference. If you're young, I consider getting it.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-28 20:44
Take a look at the LH pinky E-flat option on the Ridenour RCP-576BC. It's in a different spot ...
I think most clarinetists have the aux E-flat option removed or rarely use it if it is on their instrument. I attended a small master class of Mitchell Laurie many years ago and he stated "it just get's in the way" ... (Mr. Laurie had distilled his playing philosophy to a few really useful ideas that I still try to adhere to today.)
Tom
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-03-29 00:46
When I got a R13 Prestige, I removed the Eb/Ab lever for about a year because it was too long for me. Then, I carefully filed the end of the key to shorten it a bit and put it back on. The filing can't be seen without a close look. It is better now but still a bit too long. On an ancient full Boehm Buffet Bb and A set I have, the keys are shorter and quite handy.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-03-29 01:07
I unsoldered the touch piece on the LH Ab/Eb and reattached it at right angles to the lever which moved it lower down the instrument and reduced chance of accidentally hitting it ( but still rarely use it).
To Tom, I can't comment for Mitchell Laurie - he was a great player with or without the aux Eb - but in 0ver 50 years of playing I have met many fine professional and serious amateur players and worked on their clarinets and so far never seen one of those having the key removed.
On Eb have occassionally come across it when player has had "fat" fingers.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-29 01:12
Attachment: masspachercclarinet 008.JPG (694k)
Attachment: masspachercclarinet 013.JPG (690k)
I've just fitted a LH Ab/Eb lever to my old C clarinet - see attached photo.
I based the design on a 1960s Buffet full Boehm as most of the keywork on this clarinet is very Buffet-like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2014-03-29 02:06
On instruments that have a low Eb key for the right little finger (e.g. bass clarinets, full boehm clarinets), the LH Eb/Ab key is useful for doing a legato from low Eb to low Ab. There's a passage in the Schoeck bass clarinet sonata that would be impossible on many bass clarinets, but is easy on an instrument with the LH Eb/Ab key.
(BTW, nice work, Chris P)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-29 04:09
Chris,
The Ab/Eb lever on the Oehler is really just practical as an alternate trill. But also, if you look at the relative position of the German lever to the French, the German position sits lower, and would NEVER interfere with any standard scale-like passage. The same cannot be said of the French counterpart.
Oh, also I do a fair amount of sliding on the left, in BOTH directions. This is where the lever really gets in the way.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-29 01:25
Does it matter if you make yourself unable to use a standard clarinet in a pinch? Just sayin'
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-03-29 05:26
Ted Ridenour told me they do not offer left hand Eb key on any of there clarinets.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-29 07:56
Neither does Peter Eaton.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-29 08:39
ThatPerfectReed:
Well ... RCP has pulled the aux E-flat option or I am losing my mind.
I think it was a $100 or $120 option until recently. The key was to the side, not over and between the E/B and G-sharp/C-sharp LH keys ...
I just looked and I can't find this on any of their instruments ...
Tom
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-29 08:49
No worries TomS. From the likes of posters, the presence of this key doesn't appear to be that important anyway.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-03-29 16:09
Ted Ridenour just sent me a message and it WAS a $105.00 option ...
I know my mind is, at least, partially intact. It's the 2nd thing that stops working with old age ...
Apparently this key was not popular and so discontinued ... I would have like to have tried this variation ...
Tom
Post Edited (2014-03-29 15:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-29 17:34
A LH Ab/Eb lever is definitely worth it to players that use it regularly.
I also think it's worth having for players that rarely use it as it offers an alternative which could come in useful for them, then they could start to realise the importance of it and incorporate it in their playing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-03-29 18:55
I think most of us "older" players have learned to get along without it and it's too much, too late for us to really make use of. However, that might have been a different story had it been standard on clarinets when I was younger and had the opportunity to learn to use it "from the start". Perhaps someday in the future, it will become as routine as the alternate B, C and C# keys. For now, I find it frequently useful for some technical passages on my Prestige bass, but I always have to pre-plan its use, it definitely has not become habitual.
Bottom line: clarinets, from beginning level to pro, should have the alternative Ab/Eb key starting NOW. It should not be an expensive option for upper level instruments only. Lets get our next generation of clarinetists off on the right start--actually, "left", lol.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-03-29 20:01
It's far less costly to have the LH Ab/Eb lever fitted as a factory option as they have all the facilities and keywork pieces there ready to fit one to a lower joint that has already been prepared for it as opposed to having it fitted afterwards due to the amount of work involved in fitting one to a clarinet that hasn't already got one. I think it's only Amati that offer the LH Ab/Eb lever on all their clarinets.
I have read it was an option on the Buffet B12, but haven't seen any examples.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-03-30 02:47
Mitchell Lurie did not have the Eb/Ab lever on his Buffet instruments when I studied with him a long time ago and also never had it later in life.
A 1912 Bb Buffet and a 1921 A buffet that I have both are provided with the Eb/Ab lever in a convenient place.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-30 17:27
Ok, the Prestige costs more as it uses a more premium wood - the wood is denser.
The Ab/Eb alt key to me is just an annoyance, and costs $15 more to make.
$15............
I've never used it, and have had one since 1988.
Please argue with me about the wood density
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-30 14:33
David: your wink is noted.
Not armed with knowledge regarding how denser wood may allow more precise machining , craftsmanship, and/or stability in play, leading one would hope to superior ease of play and beauty of sound, I can take no side here on how denser wood affects play.
That said, the presumption that wood (even denser wood) makes the best material for clarinets is highly debatable.
But you knew that, and perhaps therein is the subtext for your wink.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-30 19:35
Density of the wood was what was told to be by the President of Buffet (F.K.) about 3 weeks ago when I asked him directly what was the difference of the R-13 in Prestige, and not.
More center cut wood is used for the upper models.
As for material, more dense wood could be more desirable, but wood isn't the only good material for a Clarinet.
And there are some woods that to me are not desirable for say a barrel such as snakewood, though it looks really cool!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-30 20:13
Ab/Eb key is an option on the Ridenour Clarinet (the new Liberte).
I never use, nor bump it. Doesn't exist in my mind.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-31 00:45
David: You're simply repeating what Francois Kloc (F.K.?) shared with you. I get that. You're not proving his claim as accurate, or that if accurate, correlation conclusively exists between wood density and quality. You're role here was that of reporter. Duly noted.
That said, let me humbly, but reasonably follow this reasoning. And David, clearly this is not directed your way.
My R13 from the 1960s has a case that proclaims it the "Sweetest Clarinet Ever Made." One would presume that to achieve this goal, only what was thought to be the best grenadilla available was sourced for its production, and yet today, this R13 sources wood that I can't help but conclude that its manufacturer thinks is inferior to that of the same species, used in its higher end models.
I'm forced to ask what happened in the R13 history, both in terms of absolute truth, and how the manufacturer might approach the answer consistent with that truth (hopefully one and the same.) I admit ignorance.
Are R13's no longer as good as they were? Is it only recently that Buffet has developed the ability to machine this "better quality" denser grenadilla wood, and that's why it was never used for R13's? Is it that this wood was price prohibitive for them to use for R13s, but when more recent marketing research determined that people were willing to pay more for models even better than "The Sweetest Clarinet Ever Made," they began using this denser wood in clarinet lines that were better than the R13? Should the slogan have been "The Sweetest Clarinet Ever Made, but in fact, we could produce better clarinets than this if you're flexible on price?" And the Tosca line is considered more exclusive than the Prestige right? (It sells for more.) So how does the Greenline Tosca fit into all of this?
Maybe it takes more effort to machine denser wood. I can fairly appreciate that. But does the manufacturer believe that denser wood produces not only a better clarinet, but one worth its price difference from the R13?
I'm sorry but this really deserves asking, even though I admit, unlike above, that this is meant somewhat rhetorically (although I really don't know): is the leftover wood from grenadilla clarinet production, otherwise used in the Greenline, shaved down from denser grenadilla when making the Greenline Tosca, and less dense grenadilla when making the Greenline R13 (presuming such wood density qualities remain after pulverization as raw material into the Greenline?) If so, does Buffet grade their Greenline material like they seem to do their grenadilla?
Or is the quality difference between the grenadilla Tosca and R13's different than the Greeline Tosca and Greenline R13's based on the presumption that their new clarinet material of the Greenline is consistent across all their Greenline, but not consistent in the grenadilla line?
Yes, in fairness, the Tosca has other features than denser wood that justify it having a price difference (increase) from, say, the R13, but in the Greenline, I'm guessing that the material to make the clarinet with (sans keys, springs, etc.) isn't one of them.
Is it possible that in real dollars, today's so-so grenadilla is probably costlier than the finest grenadilla available back when the R13 was the "biggest kid on the block?"
I'm not poo pooing a brand I own and that many like, so much as I am trying to determine how well the marketing dovetails with the facts and history.
I'm sorry Buffet lovers, but I am of the belief that it really is a fair question to ask of them, and any other manufacturer, musical instrument or otherwise, that claims they've one upped their best model (here, originally the R13) of any product and charge more for it as a new product offering. Manufacturers shouldn't feel the need to divulge new model trade secrets, but they should share what they think those technological improvements provide the customer.
Post Edited (2014-03-30 20:48)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-03-31 00:55
When the new models came out, they were selecting the denser wood for them. Before that, all of the wood was being used for the R-13.
So, what about weighing 2 identical Clarinets to the gram - I'd bet that the more dense wood would weigh more.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-30 21:50
So........the R13 effectively went down in what the manufacturer perceives to be the material advantage of denser grenadilla, and yet the price in real dollars went up? To be fair to Buffet, were other features added to the R13 to effectively make up for the wood now used for it that's inferior (Buffet's take) to that of days gone by? Maybe the density isn't that important and the R13 doesn't deserve to have to come down in price, but then higher end models shouldn't be priced as much, right?
And that denser wood, now I not only pay more in real dollars for what the manufacturer, by corollary, must perceive to be an inferior newer R13 from its origins (given that it's made with less select wood today), but a whole lot more to have (at least in materials, if not other features) what the older R13's had back when they were cheaper in real dollars than the current R13?
Am I being harsh to say that in my opinion, that doesn't sit well with me? Am I being unfair to say there should at least be less of a difference in price between the Greenline R13 and the Greenline Tosca, than the grenadilla R13 and the grenadilla Tosca, as the former line's base material is presumably consistent for all Greenline clarinets?
Or do I have it all wrong in that yes, the higher end models use denser wood, but that doesn't add value from Buffet's vantage point? If so, why the higher cost in these models?
I can even expect that the grand daddy of clarinet makers owes it to the retirees (i.e. cost) who built the company and created the innovations we enjoy today. But have these costs gone up dramatically in real dollars from yester-year? Is it that, like with so many companies, profits are getting eaten up in healthcare costs?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-03-31 01:59
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" applies just as well to wood for clarinet bodies and cane for reeds.
Perhaps on statistical analysis the density of wood might show some effect but as with reeds sometimes the most promising looking cane produces a dud and a lesser "looking " piece just performs. So it is with blackwood - you have to play it to find out.
From a marketing view there is clearly a valid reason for saving the prettiest wood for the most expensive models.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-03-31 06:03
The R13 Prestige that I bought two years ago is definitely heavier than my three R13s. It also has a slightly different, perhaps more resonant sound than they do. It comes with far more expensive Gortex pads than the R13s, although I would be happy with double skin pads. I also felt that the left hand 12ths are a little better than the R13s when new, indicating more handwork in the factory. I fixed the LH 12ths on my R13s after playing them a while. It has the Eb/Ab extra key and silver plating. In addition, the Prestige is a low quantity item, not the mass produced R13. It is more than just the Eb/Ab key!
All of these items add up to a somewhat higher manufacturing cost for the Prestige, which should be a fraction of the MSRP, if the maker wants to stay in business. I'm not surprized at the cost of the Prestige, which is still much lower than a professional oboe, usually made in a small shop.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-03-31 14:20
In most manufacturing industries, the bottom line is to sell more products and make money. To stay in business, they need to keep attracting new customers or convince old customers to re-buy their goods. Clothing, autos, exercise equipment....the list could be endless--for us, ending with CLARINETS. I really don't think the goal is so much to make a "better" product but rather to make it different enough so that everyone will feel the need to have "the latest". And when we buy, the Buffet cash register rings in the good news. Same for all those manufacturers of clarinet accessories--mouthpieces, ligatures, barrels, bells, extensions, etc, etc, ETC. So, buyer beware--reed behind the claims for "better" this and than and decide if it is really factual.....or are y'all relying to much on the newest and latest "thing" to make you sound better--instead of good old wood shedding, that is focused practice and experience. "Denser" wood may be a clever appeal to the "denser" consumer....think 'bout it.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-31 19:50
Wes:
I certainly appreciate and respect your feelings and beliefs that the Prestige is a better clarinet than the R13. You seem happy with all your instruments, and that is good.
What I don't know is when the R13s your are comparing it to were made. If they are of relatively new (I'll set a somewhat arbitrary dividing line of 1980) then your Prestige may be as good as the R13 was when produced in the 1950s , 60s, and 70s.
If you're comparing later model Buffet clarinets, I'd would suggest that a more objective comparison might be one where an earlier model R13, kept in good condition, is compared to one of today, or where a Prestige of today is compared to an earlier model R13 kept in good condition.
And of course testing larger quantities of clarinets, which of course no one person can do, would allow such tests to move further away from anecdotal, and closer to useful data.
I agree, the Prestige has features about it the exceed those offered on any R13 (today's or yesterday's). The issue to me is whether the cost difference is justified, especially on the Greenline clarinets where we can presume the same exact material is used to construct the clarinet body for all professional model clarinets. I need to ask if these costs really equate with better play and sound. If the features go to appearance, while we all like a nice looking instruments, I think those that "bite that hook" need to rethink what makes a clarinet valuable.
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All:
Focusing back on the R13 for a moment, there's just something about (maybe it's me) the idea that a particular make of a manufacturer's instrument experiencing what its manufacturer considers a hit in quality (I, for one, don't know that correlation exists between grenadilla wood density and quality of play/sound, but it wood (pun, not spelling error) seem Buffet does), that, when not commensurate with a price reduction in real dollars, that doesn't sit well with me. It's further compounded when I find that the cost in real dollars to buy the R13 has actually gone up.
In fairness to Buffet, as I alluded to previously, it may be dealing with things like the rising cost of health care, faced by employers worldwide, and through situations it can't be expected to be able to control, need to pass those costs, like most other companies, partly on to its consumers.
Since the Greeline technology, irrespective of what people think of it, good, bad, or indifferent, is one I believe only Buffet has rights to use, and may not be so keen on licensing to other vendors in the future, all while supplies of grenadilla are taking a hit, I cannot think of a better replacement material to use to make clarinets than hard rubber. I predict people will look back from the future and find a period of unspecified length where the industry, sans maybe Buffet, turned to this material to produce many woodwind instruments.
Even Buffet's Grenline is equal or better to its grenadilla line, it does require the use of grenadilla. Should Buffet be forced at some point (in fairness if all grenadilla producing clarinet makers at some point are forced) to scale down or eliminate the wood product line, no longer will it be able to source the usused wood from this product line for its Greenline. It may be reasonable to presume that the Greenline can continue despite grenadilla shortages and cessation of wood clarinet production, but at what increased cost, considering that today, grenadilla for the Greenline, is to Buffet's balance sheet likely a "freebie" material from already producing wood clarinets. It may be even better than a "freebie" if Buffet had to previously pay to dispose of this scrap wood prior to the Greenline's introduction.
If anyone can suggest another material on the horizon for making the wood instruments of today, that's comprised of natural ingredients, inherently water and air tight, non-carcinogenic, machinable, minimally affected by temperature and humidity, crack resistant, and plentiful I'd love them to share their thoughts. I admit that I am far from the last word on materials science.
Given all the numbers of used tires, incentives in the market have arisen for vendors to find ways to recycle and repurpose rubber, which can no doubt be extended to other products that use this material. One could only presume that all the non-tire rubber products refuse combined, might only be a small percentage of used rubber waste when compared to tires.
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William: I couldn't agree more, with the following caveat I'll make by analogy.
Let's assume that the Windows Operating Systems offered today by Microsoft really do have additional features that benefit its consumers, or, maybe to make your comparison fairer, additional features that its manufacturer claims will benefit consumers, but market research shows really aren't helping people. The fact is that unlike the R13 clarinet, the operating systems produced by the manufacturer from a decade ago didn't take a performance hit just because the more advanced line of operating systems (clarinets) was introduced.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-03-31 21:04
One of the three R13s mentioned above is a 1971 purchased new old stock in the early 1990s, in excellent condition. Again, the Prestige is a fine clarinet but not necessarily better than the R13s, just not exactly the same. It seems capable of more volume, not mentioned above, not often required.
After hearing a concert in Tempe at a clarinet convention a few years ago on a Greenline R13, I concluded that I did not wish to purchase one, because of the sound. Later, there have been reports of Greenline tenon breakage. For those players who worry about cracking, they appear to be great!
I have no information about any shortage of grenadilla wood, although rumors of it have been around for many decades. The players which I think have great sounds all played on wood instruments.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-31 18:26
I'm glad Wes that you find noteworthy distinction between your Prestige and all your R13's, irrespective of the R13's manufacture dates. You've confirmed that you like all your Buffets, as I do my 1960s R13.
One of my concerns is though, in addition to what appears to be Buffet's choice to use less quality wood on their later model more expensive (in real dollars) R13s, is the consistency of their instruments. I'm not blaiming Buffet for this as much as I am respecting that grenadilla, like reeds, can vary. I cannot fairly attribute the amount, if any, that any differences in say 6 different clarinets of theirs of the same model, can be past along to Buffet's craftsmanship or ability to examine a block of wood and predict its success at being a great instrument.
I actually, of all things, don't think wood density and playability/sound may be as closely linked as Buffet seems to buy into. You may agree, even if only through your anecdotal experiences, as you cite your Prestige as being more unique, than better than your R13s, the latter of which vary in age.
Simply showing me a reed, I won't be able to predict its characteristics on sight alone. So holding Buffet to a higher standard may be harsh.
That said, I can't speak to your experiences (although I'm interested in your thoughts) but I know that for myself, and numerous collegues, finding the right Buffet wasn't like going to the phone store and picking the make of cell phone I wanted, and letting the salesperson pick an arbitrary new phone from the boxes stacked in the back of the store, knowing it mattered little which box he picked. I had to try many R13s, as did many of my colleagues. Many I didn't care for. In fairness to Buffet, some I obviously did, as I bought one.
Now quite fairly, the clarinets I didn't care for may have been another player's dream. Still more, this issue is not limited to Buffet or even clarinets. All good buyers of natural products have to examine the merchandise closely. I admit to no controlled studies where large groups of players all tried the same, say, 10 Buffet clarinet models and reported consistent findings.
Giving Buffet every benefit of the doubt here, and certainly opportunity to reply, I would also like to add my thoughts on what things might be like if Buffet sold clarinets directly to customers via a mail and trial policy.
I ask this because sadly,
* the shortages of grenadilla have not been exaggerated, and
* hard rubber makes for a beautiful sounding clarinet that can be machined and finished with such consistency that it can be successfully sold directly from devloper to owner, through direct shipping, as leaders in this field like Ridenour are doing now.
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Author: AlexThomson
Date: 2014-04-06 10:42
i love my eb/ab key on my toscas. it certainly helps for running scales when its too quick to jump!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-06 16:28
What I and others I know don't like about the LH Ab/Eb on Buffets (including Toscas) is that rebound can be felt when using the RH Ab/Eb key as the free floating LH Ab/Eb lever can tilt back and make contact with the link soldered to the pad cup. Some have addressed this and fitted a flat spring to the underside of the LH Ab/Eb lever on the touchpiece end to prevent it from tilting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Daniel Frazelle
Date: 2014-04-07 07:30
So funny that this thread should surface tonight. I just removed the Eb key from my Tosca this afternoon. I have used it, but use it so rarely that I find it worth it to remove it and reduce the weight/clutter slightly.
For what it's worth, the weight is a big issue because I have a Greenline Tosca. The extra weight of the Greenline material, combined with the added keyword of the Tosca, makes for a very heavy instrument. I also love this instrument, btw, and view it as being just as valuable as a Grenadilla Tosca. Buffet would be insane to offer it at a lower price than a Grenadilla version because it would hurt the profit margin on their Tosca line as a whole. If that doesn't sit well with you, please recognize that this is business and there's no reason to take it so personally. Instrument manufacturers are free to offer their instruments for the price they want and we are free to choose to buy or not.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-07 04:27
I agree. It would be both bad business (in dollars and cents) and not something Buffet is required to do to discount the Greenline...line.
Discounting it might send a hidden unintended message that it is of lessor quality/value that the pure grennadilla line they make--not a good thing to do if your pure grenadilla line might need to get phased out someday due to shortages in its wood.
But the fact does remain that all other things equal, the Greenline does make it cheaper to produce both lines because the scrap wood from the conventional line is what is used as the raw material for the Greenline, whereas before the Greenline at best it ran Buffet's furnaces, or at worst, had to be disposed of with commensurate sanitation costs. I am assuming this cost savings isn't offset by large costs in making their epoxy/Grenadilla material for the Greenline.
Some might suggest that Buffet recognizing the loyalty of its customers might have them share some of the cost savings with its players. But I suspect its stakeholders seek to maximize profit, and probably feel the good will of such a sharing of cost savings with the customer won't be made up for in more profit from increased sales. Additionally, when you're being subsidized by the French government, it would stand to reason that maximizing profit must be your goal, so as to minimize your need for tax payer subsidy.
Of course the cost in real dollars of Buffet clarinets is becoming so large that first time entrants into the professional clarinet marketspace can't afford them to an even larger extent that in days gone by. This is where the future buyers are suppose to come from, as they influence the next set of buyers in their eventual roll as mentors, advising a student on what to purchase.
Buffet needs to charge what they do in large part to pay legacy costs (retirement pay, etc.). I just hope in so doing, they don't price themselves into boutique clarinet range, and see drops in sales commensurate with a boutique outfit's smaller sales and size. Then again their sales might rise as they seem to be the only professional pure grenadilla clarinet maker with a post pure grenadilla plan, other than Ridenour Clarinet Products and its hard rubber clarinets.
I do find something odd though. The name Greenline suggests to me a product line made from renewable resources. If the expoxy used to make this line is itself sourced from fossil fuels (my understanding), how is that "greener" than its conventional line of clarinets, which could at least potentially be considered derived from a renewable resource if grenadilla had been, or becomes now, a wood that's harvested no faster than it's grown.
All the positive attributes of hard rubber horns notwithstanding, you tap, not chop down, rubber trees to get it. And new methods of recycling/repurposing rubber are being introduced.
No joke, I recently bought carpeting, where one of the padding offerings was from Nike, the sneaker maker. Its foam was made of sneaker scraps.
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