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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-04-03 23:35
Typically, if I'm practicing a difficult (for me anyway) piece, I will play a few bars slowly, say 1 or 2 lines at most, using a metronome and gradually increase the bpms until I have that section of the piece up to speed.
I will then go on to a new set of measures until I've gone through the whole piece. This may take days. When I've gotten individual measures up to tempo, I will then go back and try to put it all together.
What I usually find at that point is that I have to drop back to as little as 75% or less tempo on the metronome in order to get the whole piece right, and then I have to gradually increase the bpms until I have it all.
For example, I could play an arrangement of "Blue Bossa" at 140 when doing only the small sections, but I had to drop all way back to 100 to do the whole thing well. Of course, eventually, I can finally get it all up to tempo, but it's frustrating.
Is that normal? It seems to me that if I can play individual bars or short sections at tempo, I should be able to play the whole thing at tempo??
Advice will be appreciated.
CarlT
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-04 00:12
A couple of thoughts:
1. It should be a rare piece, unless you're really pushing well beyond your comfort level, that is uniformly difficult such that every measure demands detailed practice. So a normal practice routine would be to work as you've described on one difficult passage and then immediately try to put the section back into its surrounding context.
2. When I work on a difficult passage, I would not break it into unmusical units. I start with as few notes as necessary (could be only three notes) to solve the biggest problem in a small musical fragment - probably a phrase, and the starting point could be the beginning, the middle or the last couple of notes - then work backward and forward adding notes a couple or a few at a time until I can get through the whole phrase. Then I try to plug the phrase into its context. Each addition of material may very cause insecurity in the part I've already worked out. I go back and forth between fewer and more notes until the larger excerpt is comfortable. At the end I want to have a musical unit smoothed out and under control at a tempo that's at least close to the goal.
3. I will drop the tempo for one or two passes just to make sure I'm reading accurately and know what's actually on the page. But then I start at a tempo that's a little under what's required but still has the same technical feel in my fingers and tongue. One thing I learned from a thread not too long ago about practice speed is that if you go too slowly, your muscular approach may change drastically and you may not be able to generalize what you've done to a faster tempo. Play at a reasonable tempo but only as many notes as you can play smoothly at that tempo. Add only as many notes as you can incorporate without falling apart.
4. You'll have to redo what you've done, maybe several times over a period of days until it's firmly set in muscle memory.
Karl
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-04 08:02
Another helpful method is, after you do what you said, play the piece from the end forward.
I.e. play the last bar at tempo, then the last 2 bars, then the last 3, etc. etc . . . at tempo.
b>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-04 16:35
Adding to the idea of "dropping the practiced section into context," I'd say that you should consciously add the transition element just before and just after the "target" section you practice. I've unearthed more surprise problems that way - that is, the problem all along in those instances was where you are coming from (note wise that is) or where you are going next.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-04-04 15:25
Difficult sections -
Break it into practice units of 2-4 measures, plus the first note of the next measure.
Play it 1/2 tempo (with a metronome) 9 times.
The 10th time, play it full speed (with a metronome).
Repeat that 5-10 times, then move on to the next practice unit.
Do that every day for a few weeks on really tough passages and you'll have it down perfect.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-04-04 21:12
pewd wrote:
> Difficult sections -
>
> Break it into practice units of 2-4 measures, plus the first
> note of the next measure.
>
> Play it 1/2 tempo (with a metronome) 9 times.
> The 10th time, play it full speed (with a metronome).
>
> Repeat that 5-10 times, then move on to the next practice unit.
>
Paul, I don't normally try to directly counter other posters' ideas, but this method seems problematic to me for a couple of reasons.
Is this your personal approach to practicing difficult passage work, or do you have your students follow this process as well?
I might well be able to learn some problematic passages this way (depending very much on what the problem is that the passage presents). But I'm not sure it wouldn't leave my students spinning their wheels.
My biggest concern is that the leap from half to full tempo is one that, in my experience, would leave my students in the dust. My other concern is that trying to apply any practice regimen to an excerpt as long as 4 bars would be more, again in my experience, than most of my students could process in one lump.
Am I missing something?
Karl
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-04-06 03:15
Thanks, fellows.
Karl, I believe your method is closer to what I do than others, but I don't always "put it in the context" of what's around it in the same manner as you described, so I'll be conscious of that in the future.
Bruno, that's an interesting idea beginning at the end and going back, and I'll try that, too.
Paul Aviles, your advice makes good sense. I'll keep that in mind.
Paul (pewd): Your answer appears to be the most unusual one, but one that I will certainly try. Intuitively, I can't see me skipping all the way from half to full tempo, but I hear what you're saying about practicing at half tempo for 9 times before the 10th at full tempo. I also understand that this may take several days to achieve good results, so I will give it time to work. I never say something won't work until I've at least given it a good try, so thanks.
I appreciate all of you guys.
CarlT
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-06 00:18
You know, I'm going to come to the "other" Paul's defense on this one. A fellow colleague of mine says ALWAYS PRACTICE SLOWLY. He is following the advice of Both Allen Balter and Larry Combs. But within that idea is the notion that once you have the notes down stone cold with a metronome at a very slow tempo, speed becomes only a shift rather than a whole learning curve. So even though Paul's idea puts a finite number on repetitions, it still fits into this idea quite nicely.
It does bear putting a fine point on the concept in that it is quite different than the notion of gradually bumping the metronomic marking a few clicks after every so many reps. My colleague became the screaming great player that he is today following this advice since high school.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-04-06 05:23
I have personally made better progress with a combination of "always practice slowly" and when it's down pat, I bump up the metronome, but MORE than a few clicks.
And I mean SLOW!
First I attempt to sight-read it at tempo, or close to tempo if possible (ahem....the wanamaker duo....not reading it at tempo). This first time now helped my sight-reading get a little better.
Then I start the rehearsal part.
My former instructor showed me a "prepared fingering" technique. For example, for an awkward passage, I would set the metronome to 60 and play one note (whether it's a sixteenth note, eighth note, whatever) per click. I'd staccato it, and IMMEDIATELY move to the fingering of the next note, waiting the rest of the beat before I staccato the next note.
Once my fingers have 'learned' the proper progressions, I play it at about half tempo (if I can, slower if I can't) and it comes out pretty easily. I make sure to hit EVERY part of the piece at this very slow tempo. Articulations, crescendos, rhythms, etc. When I can play it perfectly at that tempo, I bump the metronome up significantly (10 clicks or more) and do it till it's perfect there. Rinse, and repeat.
Overall, it's pretty rare that I rehearse very small sections of a piece. Most pieces do not have ONE or TWO hard bars, it'll be a cadence, a larger phrase, etc. I'll rehearse the entire area. Some pieces, the whole darned thing is the area (stravinsky's three pieces, third movement). The last few measures are the hardest for me, but I won't play any of the piece faster than I can rehearse those last few bars.
Something like the copland concerto has more than one distinct style throughout the piece. So I'll rehearse the first style at whatever tempo is good for that, and the second style at whatever is good for that, but will do all "sections" from beginning to end.
Takes a long time, but I feel better doing it and knowing that those parts "as a whole" are increasing at the same rate and I'm not gonna perform something with the knowledge that the "hard part" is coming up, cause I'll have already rehearsed the whole darned thing many MANY times through, from the beginning to the end.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-04-06 01:26
Oh, and the weird thing is, if I can play it perfectly without thinking about it about 20 clicks slower than performance tempo, it really does tend to be a "shift" and the performance tempo just comes out fine.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-04-08 17:59
There are several approaches to practising difficult passages. One of my favorite etude books I used for my teaching was the Kroepsch 416 Daily progressive studies. Thet're one-three line technical passages to be played 4-8 times daily each when learning them. I would use that message with my students teaching them how to practise difficult passages when learning other etudes or solos.
Ricardo Morales once told a student he'll play a passage one hundred times, then he begins to learn it. It's been said by some famous player, "It's never to late to practise something slow". It all applies, you have to find the best comfortable method for you.
I'm a believer in finger memorization. Of course not blindly. That's the way I've always been able to play very difficult passages even when getting a little nervous. Knowing a passage so well that your fingers do the walking for you.
I've often told my students to play a short passage like a Kroepsch study, beginning slow enough that you can play it, go over the one or few intervals you're having trouble with separately, repeat the passage, do the interval again, repeat the passage etc. until you can play the passage at a reasonable, but moderately slow tempo well no matter how many times it takes. By the second or third day close your eyes and play it. Begin moving the tempo up daily. Always start at the tempo you ended the day before, play it a few times and then move the tempo up to the next step. Once you have a good command over the passage us a metronome to make sure you're playing it steady and evenly patiently heading for the final tempo.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-08 15:06
There is something that bears remembering that no one has mentioned, and that is, some pieces are simply too difficult for a player's present skills, and shouldn't be tackled because they lead to discouragement.
As Dirty Harry said, "A man's GOT to know his limitations!" (Sorry . . . it just seemed to fit so well.)
bruno>
Post Edited (2014-04-08 16:49)
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