 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jessica
Date: 2014-04-05 16:59
My Buffet Festival just cracked for the first time. :( Thankfully it's not that bad, it didn't even go through the tone hole all the way. I've only had it for a year, so I was wondering if there are any ways to prevent it from cracking again in the future? My teacher said to put a wet sponge in the case but that didn't seem to keep it from cracking this time...
I live in central Texas, where the weather kind of just does what it wants. 80's with 90% humidity one day and then down to 40's and 50's the next.. I think that might be why it cracked?? But I honestly have no idea. I don't know much in this department so any info/ tips will help!
Post Edited (2014-04-05 21:00)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-05 21:43
Buying a new clarinet in late spring/early summer when humidity levels are high helps as it'll be fully played in by the time winter comes.
But that still doesn't 100% safeguard against cracking as that can happen at any time, but it goes towards preventing cracks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-05 22:23
I can only think of three things to do:
1. Buy a used clarinet that hasn't cracked in its first decade of so of life.
2, Buy a Greenline or similar resin- or rubber-based clarinet.
3. Make sure you don't subject even a relatively new wood clarinet to sudden temperature increases. Warm it up with your hands or against your body first.
Even these aren't 100% guarantees against cracking. The more I read here and elsewhere, the more certain I am that if there's a flaw in the grain of the instrument, especially in the upper joint, it's more likely to crack. If it's gonna crack, it's gonna crack and there's not much to do to prevent it.
If an instrument does crack, having it competently repaired is important. I think the repair techniques have improved tremendously since my student days in the 1960s, and a cracked instrument properly repaired can still be perfectly playable.
Karl
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2014-04-05 21:01
I think there are things that can and should be done to mitigate the chances of a crack occurring, but I agree 1000% with Karl's thoughts.
It's entirely possible that you did nothing at all to induce the crack. If you did do something, then you know to be more careful in the future.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-04-06 01:08
Ditto on the video ... and, I used orange peels for years and worked better than any other idea.
I played wood instruments for almost 50 years and only one crack pinned after playing a very cold outdoor gig ... pretty good luck, after all those good times!
I have heard that a better grade of wood, due to its long straight grain is more likely to crack than wood with more swirls and imperfections. One well known dealer told be that cracks were more common in R13s than E11s even though more E11s were sold ...
Tom
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-05 21:32
I am unlikely to ever own another wood clarinet, unless somebody decides to gift me a shiny gold Big Easy one day (and even then it would be an emotional rather than cold logical choice to play it regularly in lieu of my late edition Arioso = Lyrique 576BC- I moved to my Arioso from a nice Dynamic 2 and honestly I did not feel or hear much difference the day I switched).
I had a new Noblet back in my previous playing days. When I got going again in 2010 I began with a TR147 (so glad it was a good example, many are not), then got a Yamaha YCL61, then the Dynamic 2, and now the Arioso. I fortunately never dealt with a crack, which I think I would have found unreasonably devastating even if well repaired and no effect on playing. I care well for my horns, but I don't think I've ever been a nut case about it. It is nice to have one less thing to worry about with a rubber/ebonite instrument.
Anyway, one question I had--- do any manufacturers ever replace joints for cracking? ...for how long after purchase? I remember reading warranty info back in my student days, to the effect that the mfg (Noblet/Leblanc/Buffet?) would make such a replacement ONCE- but if a replacement joint cracked they would take it as evidence of instrument mistreatment and, end of story. How convenient. I also recall some weasel wording about how the owner of a fine Stradivarius violin wouldn't be concerned about a crack and therefore you shouldn't be worried about a crack in your wooden student level horn, LOL. Even in the pre-consumerist days of circa 1968 and at age 15, I recognized this as BS.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-05 22:04
is it still under warranty? if it is replace joint or have it fixed.
if it is a small crack it can be glued with superglue, but it takes some practice to have it done to look aesthetically pleasing. I just repaired a 40-year old clarinet, which was pinned at the factory. Wood dried up, crack opened and was leaking again.
If there is enough stress wood will crack the only things which seem to help to stabilize wood is oiling and waxing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-06 03:02
Dear Cyclopathic,
Thanks for mentioning the "oiling." I would say that this will help since it allows the cells of the wood to remain somewhat elastic. Those of us who oil, do so once a month or so. Start with just a thin coat in the bore. Check the next morning; if there is no visible oil in the bore, repeat until there is some left over oil. Wipe excess and wait for the next oiling.
I just don't understand how 'not oiling' could make sense since dry things are known to become brittle.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-04-06 01:18
My new clarinet came with a small humidifier that I keep in the case with the clarinet at all times. It also came with the instructions (and a turkey feather to help with the application) to oil it on a monthly basis as Paul advises above. Thanks for the reminder, Paul:) And thanks, Kessler Music, for these two tips to help make sure it doesn't crack.
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Author: RAB
Date: 2014-04-06 23:47
Here is my two cents worth:
My personal instrument(Buffet) was purchases in 1972 and has never cracked. I had a Selmer series 9* and it did crack. I did the same thing with each.
I have seen clarinets that are "babied" and still crack and other instruments misused and abused and do not crack. With all we do the clarinet is a piece of wood with all the problems that go along with that.
What causes a lot of cracking is sudden changes of humidity or temperature. I see a lot of instruments in the shop every year when the heaters go on. The air is less humid, especially where steam heat is used, universities and other large places.
I keep 2 small humidly gauges in my case. I use them to see if the humidity changes, I use 2 gauges in case one sticks. I try to keep the case humidity between 50 to 60%. You could compare this to a cigar humidor. I do not leave the instrument out overnight where the humidly in the room could cause the instrument to dry out.
I use a large dampit in the accessory compartment of the case to add humidity, never place a damp it inside the bore, water can leach out and go into the wood. It does not matter if you use a sponge or another device just as long as it adds moisture in a controlled manner. The old practice of using orange peals concerns me due to the possibility of mold occurring if it is left unattended. Stability is what matters.
If the instrument is cold let it warm up naturally before playing if possible. Do not put it next to a heater or blow warm air into it. The inside will expand and the outside being cold will not and that expansion force has to go somewhere. Oiling has always been a controversial issue and will not add anything to that issue right now.
In conclusion, stability of humidity and temperature will help prevent cracks. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason why cracks occur. If possible I recommend the crack be pinned or have a carbon fiber band put around it. Many companies will provide a new joint for up to 5 years. However that is a different piece of wood and it might match up or it might not.
Again this is just my thoughts and advice. There are many opinions out there and this is just one of them based on 40 years of playing and working on them.
Rod
Rodney Berry
Repair Dept
Muncy Winds Music Company
Boone, N.C.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-04-06 23:52
1) Don't run over it with a car
2) Don't drop it (or let it fall) on a hard surface
3) Don't do anything in this or previous lives that would invite bad karma
4) All other guidance will invite counter-argument
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-07 00:22
Mark Charette wrote:
> 1) Don't run over it with a car
> 2) Don't drop it (or let it fall) on a hard surface
> 3) Don't do anything in this or previous lives that would
> invite bad karma
> 4) All other guidance will invite counter-argument
Wait! I ran over my A clarinet once and it didn't crack. (But the bell did. Does that count?)
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-04-06 20:27
> Wait! I ran over my A clarinet once and it didn't crack. (But
> the bell did. Does that count?)
>
> Karl
Yes - if you regularly use the bell ...
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-07 04:08
@Paul Aviles
> I just don't understand how 'not oiling' could make sense since dry things
> are known to become brittle.
it really depends on type of used? If you oil wood with car oil, it will become brittle. If you get bored try it on some piece of wood preferably not related to any musical instrument!
And if you have a crack it would not be glue-able after oiling, been there/done it.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-07 00:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I just don't understand how 'not oiling' could make sense since
> dry things are known to become brittle.
>
I don't think it's an issue of whether or not "dry things are known to become brittle." Those of us who don't oil aren't convinced that our clarinets are dried out. When you oil each night until there's some still standing on the bore surface the next day, I would think you're saturating the wood near the bore. But my questions are:
Does wood need to be saturated to be flexible enough to avoid cracking absent a crack-inducing flaw, and
Does the oil wick through the entire thickness, or is the wood near the bore surface saturated while the wood near the outside surface is unaffected? I assume that you don't see oil seeping out of the outer surface after you've treated the bore in the way you describe.
It isn't that I want to argue that you shouldn't oil your clarinet's bore regularly. It's that I've never had a problem with a clarinet cracking, and I've never oiled any of my instruments. My intuitive assumption is that the wood retains its natural oil plus what is added at the factory (the billets are soaked in an oil bath before being turned or shaped in any way, as I understand it) under normal circumstances. I also assume, again only intuitively, that the appearance of the wood would change if it were truly dried out under some unusual circumstance.
I'd need to see a rationale for oiling (especially as often as monthly) based on something more than someone else's intuitive belief. But oiling a clarinet is neither expensive nor difficult nor time-consuming, so if those who do oil regularly have never noticed any bad effect from it, I guess you make your own choice. Either way is a guess.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-07 04:45
Karl- I hope the clarinet was the only casualty of your vehicle mishap. I imagine you were happy to find only the bell damaged. Unless the run-over was intentional, because you were angry at your equipment. Not that any of us ever feel that way.
I appreciate the combination of helpful advice and apparent nonsense in this thread.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-07 04:54
@Karl
I think we have a religious war on hands?
here is an article on oiling, looks like it has some of your questions answered:
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/Publications/deterioration-of-grenadilla-instruments/Show-All-Pages
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/lifeeverlasting.htm
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-07 05:07
Well, oil will move through the wood from the surface of the bore unless the bore is lacquered or otherwise coated in some way (there are some manufacturers that do that, though not your Selmers and Buffets).
We are also putting a fair amount of water down our bores every day which is not necessarily a good thing (watch your wives run out with a coaster whenever you try to set a glass of ice tea directly upon her good dining room table). Actually there are other examples such as treating your deck with water sealant or making sure you regularly paint the wooden siding to you house that are more than "intuitive belief."
One last thing about clarinets. The outer surface (at least on all modern Buffets) is coated with a heavy stain (to make it look black) and this will prevent you from seeing some of the ill affects of drying out wood. However you CAN see the "chocolaty" appearance at the tenons which is a good sign things are getting a bit dry.
All we "oilers" are saying is that it is a preventative measure, not a guarantee. What you do with your horn is your choice.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-04-07 05:07
cyclopathic wrote:
> @Karl
>
> I think we have a religious war on hands?
>
> here is an article on oiling, looks like it has some of your
The arTicles are self - serving. It doesn't mean they're wrong, only that they're suspect. We tend to suspect big companies when they pay or do research that shows their products in a good light. That skepticism needs to be used for small companies too.
Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, only that you need to carefully consider the source. And be very careful of your own confirming bias.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-07 02:05
cyclopathic wrote:
> @Karl
>
> I think we have a religious war on hands?
I certainly hope it doesn't comes to that level of violence or global consequence. I don't feel that kind of zeal about this. I was merely fulfilling Mark's 4th point ("4) All other guidance will invite counter-argument."
>
> here is an article on oiling, looks like it has some of your
> questions answered:
> http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/Publications/deterioration-of-grenadilla-instruments/Show-All-Pages
> http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/lifeeverlasting.htm
I've read these rather quickly - you only posted the links a short while ago - but Naylor seems to be writing about reviving deteriorated instruments, especially ones commonly described as "blown out." His references to oiling focus on immersion techniques for damaged or distorted instruments, either by repeated hand oiling over a period of months or immersion for a few weeks in a tank of oil. This is clearly not what we've been talking about here. I don't dispute in any way that a truly dried out instrument will show the problems he describes and will benefit hugely from intensive immersion with vegetable-based oils. I think he makes a great deal of sense and his approach can probably save a great many otherwise deteriorated ("blown out") wood instruments. I didn't read (maybe I just missed it) anything in either article that recommended regular oiling as a preventive technique to be applied to newer, non-compromised instruments.
Naylor has not answered my questions as they apply to indefinite regular - monthly - oiling of a new clarinet. He talks about stresses in the wood, and nothing he writes about it seems in the least hard for me to believe. But I don't read anything in either article that suggests oiling early and often, assuming the wood was properly seasoned in the first place, will prevent those stresses from having bad effects.
If you tell me I should go back and read more carefully, I will. He makes a great case for my possibly wanting to send him my early '50s Buffet Bb to see what a total immersion rebuild could do for it. But that isn't what this discussion was initially about.
Karl
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-04-07 13:47
Is there any indication that a dry clarinet will produce a different tone than one where the wood is oiled?
I would have thought that the condition of the wood would have a major difference in the quality of sound produced.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-07 11:53
A freshly oiled clarinet does seem a bit more "covered" in response.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-04-07 16:29
>> A freshly oiled clarinet does seem a bit more "covered" in response. <<
No IME with many.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-07 16:36
You've unwittingly opened another whole can of worms. Clarinetists can't even agree on whether entirely different materials (wood, hard rubber, metal, etc.) produce different tone, much less desiccated vs. fully hydrated wood.
Of course, the dimensional changes caused by extreme dryness to the bore and tone holes will affect tone, intonation and response. Brittle tone hole edges can chip, which will cause air leaks. Mechanism can bind. So there would almost certainly be noticeable, probably catastrophic (in musical terms) changes to the way the instrument sounds and plays.
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-08 01:33
@karl
IMHO oiling is one of those things people would argue on this board and produce anecdotal evidence supporting both sides of the issue. I vaguely remember discussing you Patricola C clarinet a few weeks back..
here is one more interesting read (not specifically clarinet related) on sealing new wood, take a look:
http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/wax-emulsion.html
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-08 02:08
cyclopathic wrote:
> @karl
>
> IMHO oiling is one of those things people would argue on this
> board and produce anecdotal evidence supporting both sides of
> the issue.
Absolutely. I just like to make sure when the subject comes up in response to a question about cracking that both sides of the issue get in.
> I vaguely remember discussing you Patricola C
> clarinet a few weeks back..
Yes, and the opinions I read essentially took the position that with "rosewood" oiling wasn't going to help and might even be harmful. One response suggested that it might be better to let it find its own equilibrium and then re-fit the binding keys (file just a little off the sleeve) to free them and give them a little room for movement as the weather changes.
I agree that it's not a cut-and-dried issue at all. I just like to be sure that's clear when the subject comes up. I can leave it in good conscience for now.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-08 03:46
IME = Independent Medical Exam (1st Google hit) ?
input method editor? 2nd
Institute of Makers of Explosives? my favorite- 5th hit
International Mountain Equipment? 6th
Iowa Medicaid Enterprise? 8th
Hard to see how any of these fit with oiling clarinets, except that the arguments seem to be getting a tad explosive.
Google does seem to know most of the common acronyms for texting and such, like IMHO.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-07 23:48)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-08 04:38
to - literally - put more oil into fire.
One of the biggest enemies of the wood is rot causing fungi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood-decay_fungus
The conditions inside clarinet (dark and wet) are ideal breading ground for fungi
When Alexander the Great armies marched to conquer most of the known world greeks soaked bridges in olive oil. Bridges stayed rot-free for years to come.
Post Edited (2014-04-08 04:43)
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