 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Patrick Sikes
Date: 2014-04-09 01:39
Does anybody know where I can find a vintage Hans Moennig barrel? Hopefully one not "blown-out." I know I'm asking a lot, but so many of the contemp Moennig's I've tried are VERY "pingy." My teacher in high school had one that I tried for a little while when I borrowed his A. There was much more depth and center to the sound (maybe that's what the new ICON barrel is for, but I like the focus of the taper).
I don't want to get in a big discussion of the taper (there's probably a million on this site), just wondering if anyone knows where I can find one. Thank you guys so much!
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-04-09 05:57
I may be wrong about this, but I think some of the older Moennig barrels had a hard rubber insert that was reamed to his reverse taper specs.
I don't know if this was for bore stability ... but it may be because there was only stock Buffet barrels available and they didn't have a raw bore undersized enough to facilitate the reaming.
I had a Buffet Moennig barrel in the late 1980s and it didn't have this rubber insert.
But, one of my teachers did own one with the rubber insert ... I'm pretty sure.
Tom
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-09 09:31
A genuinely vintage Moennig barrel won't say Moennig on it, it will say Buffet Crampon. Moennig hand-reamed Buffet barrels that were supplied to him deliberately undersized. I don't think, though I could be wrong, that Moennig was involved in marketing anything with his name on it - I think Buffet started marketing them after he had retired or, maybe, even after he had died.
One thing my repair guy, who was directly involved in Anthony Gigliotti's efforts to replicate Moenning's Buffet innovations when he cooperated with Selmer to design the 10G, explained to me may possibly shed some light on the difference between modern Moennig barrels and old ones (if it exists), especially the ones Moennig himself produced, although this is only conjecture on my part. He was reaming the barrels by hand, using two different reamers, one for the larger end and one for the smaller. When you do it that way, you don't get an even taper from top to bottom - there's a break in the taper where the two reamers end. At some point the barrels that were made later to his specifications were reamed by machine with a single reamer from the top (the larger end) to the bottom. There's some disagreement, apparently, over whether these two different tapers produce the same result. If Buffet, when it first began to produce the Moennig line of barrels, was reaming them the way Moenning did, those would possibly play differently from later ones that were reamed in one pass.
I know you didn't want to get into details about the tapers, but this detail may explain why newer Moennig barrels are different from "vintage" ones, if they are.
But other barrel makers are now replicating the reverse taper that Moennig applied to those undersized barrels in the 1950s until his retirement, so I'm not sure there's anything unique about Moennig barrels, vintage or modern. You may find what you're looking for without having to wait for that vintage barrel to come up on EBay.
BTW, you tried your teacher's vintage Moennig barrel on his A clarinet. Are you sure the greater depth and center weren't because you were playing an A clarinet? Or that the clarinet you've tried the modern ones on isn't itself more "pingy" sounding? Moennig wasn't into the same kind of "darkness" or roundness many modern players are after. Players of that time were mostly looking for focused but lively, "pingy" sounding setups and he was in business to satisfy their needs.
Karl
Post Edited (2014-04-09 13:24)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-09 15:09
It might be cheaper to try alternatives. Even custom would be cheaper the original Moennig. There are several barrel makers on this forum like Alseg (not an endorsement) who could make a good barrel to your specs. And you can pick materials/shape. I am using rosewood fatboy which I rimmed by hand and it is noticeably darker.
Also if you tried barrel on teacher's A, could the difference be due to A being generally darker then Bb?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-09 20:25
With respect to Patrick's desire to find, not discuss the taper, I'll be brief about how perhaps he can have one made for him. It would appear that replication of its dimensions (if not its rubber/no rubber insert) requires no more than a #2 Morse taper.
http://youtu.be/T2m8NVdxNo0?t=4m41s
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-09 17:08
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> With respect to Patrick's desire to find, not discuss the
> taper, I'll be brief about how perhaps he can have one made for
> him. It would appear that replication of its dimensions (if
> not its rubber/no rubber insert) requires no more than a #2
> Morse taper.
The standard Moennig taper for a Bb clarinet goes from .590" at the top to .580" at the bottom. I don't know what his A taper is but I think it's still a drop of .010". The taper itself is so ubiquitous these days that there are probably a lot of repairers and barrel makers with reamers to do it. Of course, it's still a question of whether they use two reamers and go in from each side (creating more of a double hourglass than a smooth taper) or go all the way through with a single reamer, which I'm told is hard to do by hand but maybe can be done on a shop lathe.
The bottom line still is that there are a lot of current barrels modeled on the Moennig design so it probably isn't worth the search to try to find a "vintage" Moennig barrel when most of us really don't know specifically what that really is.
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-09 17:48
ThatPerfectReed wrote:
> requires no more than a #2
> Morse taper.
they are like $30-40 a piece. The taper on Morse #2 is 1:20 as I recall.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2014-04-09 22:18
I lucked into finding a Buffet Moennig barrel and even though it was (invisibly) cracked, this primarily sax player instantly loved the sound. Last I knew you could still buy them new, but certainly not for the $50 I got mine for.
I toy with getting another size for certain high temp conditions but at this price, I can't justify it: http://www.wwbw.com/Buffet-Crampon-Moennig-Clarinet-Barrels-468479-i1431231.wwbw
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-09 18:35
Karl:
As far as the dimensions go, I thought it was .589 to .580
http://youtu.be/T2m8NVdxNo0?t=2m
although we may be saying the same thing in size, anymore than if we aren't, we're dealing with tolerances that the very nature of dimentionally changing wood (assuming the barrel is done in wood today) might exceed, and are probably not much of a difference regardless, especially given the questionable single or bi directional reaming you discuss, that would leave a smooth or slightly double hour glass like attribute to aforementioned smooth taper.
I would suspect, irrespective of the questionable reaming methods (read: we don't know how it was reamed, NOT that it was reamed in a shoddy fashion) that Moenig having tried near countless taper sizes, and happened to fall upon the #2 Morse taper, is so remote, that instead his sizes were achieved in the opposite direction: he found the best industry standard size tapered reamer and went with that. (Not that you disagree.)
Maybe he had different optimal design tapers, (the method for doing the reaming (bi or one directional) left aside for a moment) and felt it best to go with the optimal size that conformed to an industy standard tapered reamer. Perhaps we'll never know, or need to know.
=======
All this said, I think I get the jist of your argument, or so I believe, in that reproducing the barrel today isn't easy not because we don't have the taper to match his dimensions, but that we lack instructions on how to truly fabricate the barrel (i.e. uni or bi-directionally). This does of course leave us in a bit of a paradox (none of your making sir) in that we might neither be able to secure the questioner's desired product in original, or reproduce it correctly today, leaving him with nothing.
Given this, perhaps the lessor of all evils might be to reproduce it today, using either one or bi-directional reaming (I'd think there's much more room for differences with double insertion of the reamer), than make nothing at all.
Perhaps not.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-04-09 22:40
The length of bore inside a 66mm barrel is approx 28.5mm.
I have just measured the morse 2 taper on my lathe tools.
Putting a morse taper 2 reamer in this bore length would result in a taper of approx 0.050" not the 0.009 needed for a Moennig.
Clearly the morse 2 claim is incorrect.
Incidentally the taper on several Leblanc barrels I have from the early 60s shows at 0.008" so not so different from "claimed" Moennig.
However it has long been my understanding that the Moennig taper is not a simple linear shape but incorporates 2 or more steps, as I believe also does the Chadash taper.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-09 22:54
Armageddon
/ arme' gedn/
noun
1. The last battle battle between good and evil before the Day of Judgement
2. Two clarinetists representing each side of ballistic nuclear missle reduction talks between nations.
3. Two clarinetists agreeing at 2:45 to meet again at 3:15 to discuss whether 3:00 actually transpired between the two times they met.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-09 23:42
@Norman
have you measured the internal diameter in increments? just measuring at the edge may not be reliable as those could be rounded.
It is my understanding that Chadash is hourglass shape with waist line at 1/3. Most conical reamers have similar taper (B&S #6 is 1:24 and fits diameter-wise), so the delta should be similar. I think there are 1:50 tapers, but not sure which ones.
Another possibility Hans used 2 reamers conical and smaller size straight. It is very unlikely he would have used something which you won't find in toolbox.
Either taper on 1"1/4 will not have drastic impact on tuning, it is the total volume which is more important. Taper does have impact on overtones and tone.
Also if you use straight reamer one side will be bigger anyways.
And the last but not least the adjustable reamers have slight taper, I'll check tonight on rate. They are handy if you are doing adjustments in increments.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-09 20:34
cyclopathic wrote:
> Another possibility Hans used 2 reamers conical and smaller
> size straight. It is very unlikely he would have used something
> which you won't find in toolbox.
Well, he did have tools made for him that wouldn't have been available on the open market. But I agree that he would have done his initial trial and error work with standard tools and would only have had special ones made after he knew what he wanted.
Karl
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Author: Lee
Date: 2014-04-09 21:28
Does it matter that his original barrels were made for what are now called pre R-13 clarinets? Would that need to be changed for the various R-13 instruments?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-10 01:35
I think the ones we call Moennig-style barrels were developed for R13s. He certainly worked on a lot of pre-R13 clarinets, but I'm pretty sure that the ones identified as Moennig-Buffet barrels were made for R13s.
Are the newer ones made to work with newer Buffet models? I don't know. If they've been changed to make them compatible with Toscas, for example, it might compromise their usefulness with the R13-based clarinets still in production. Especially since, IMO, the R13 and Tosca clarinets (at least as I've heard them played) are made to emphasize different tone characteristics.
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-09 23:01
When it comes to Moennig taper IMHO there is alot of smoke and mirrors. And the irony is the guys who have the measurements and making modern copies are staying away from these threads like from plague. It is all about bottom line I suppose.
@karl
yes Moenning barrels were developed to improve intonation and 12h on R13 with Kaspar-style big bore MPCs. The reduced barrel volume is responsible for majority of improvements; taper probably helps to bring some mid-pipe tones in tune. What is the impact of using it on different horn? it could help or can make it worse. Nevertheless taper does have impact on tone.
And yes on some barrel/MPC combos the volume of that little gap btw end of MPC tenon and bottom of MPC socket is bigger then the barrel volume difference due to taper.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-04-09 23:08
Cyclopath, my measurements of #2 morse taper were done direct from a precision metal lathe centre.
To achieve a 0.009" reduction over 28.5mm (1.140") would require a taper of 1/126 vastly different to the morse taper 1/20 - 1/25
My measurements of Leblanc barrels were made with precision bore guage able to measure all parts of the bore.
I do have Buffet made Moennig and Chadsash barrels but haven't mapped the precise rate of taper in the various parts at this time.
The degree of taper will affect the tuning of certain ranges of pitch due to fact that the position of nodes/antinodes of the fundamental and 3rd 5th etc harmonics fall differently within the barrel.
Post Edited (2014-04-10 03:12)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-10 03:19
From the original post:
"I don't want to get in a big discussion of the taper (there's probably a million
on this site), just wondering if anyone knows where I can find one."
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-04-10 03:31
Now who was it who introduced the rather dubious mention of a 2 morse taper into this thread ??
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-10 03:43
@Norman,
Sorry for the runt above, was not pointed at you by any means.
I measured the cheapo adjustable 17/32-19/32" (13.5-15mm) hand reamer and the taper somewhere in 1:210-280 range.
From what I can tell the vintage hand made ebonite/bakelite barrels were reamed from the top and would pick ~.05-0.1mm, if not more. It isn't wood, so dimensions are not affected by time.
I should ream a couple holes just to see what would be the difference and variation. BUT assuming that math and measurements are correct if you add .1mm up to adjustable reamer taper overall ends up ~1:120-150 range.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-04-10 03:45
Patrick Sikes wrote:
> Does anybody know where I can find a vintage Hans Moennig
> barrel?
Interesting question though. I don't even know what a vintage Moennig barrel is. We have no idea what has gone on with it in intervening years. Perhaps it is out of round compared with when it was new. Perhaps it's been re-reamed (a common occurrence with old barrels). Perhaps it'll play like crud on your horn.
Wouldn't it be easier to talk to someone who makes barrels, try a few, return them (perhaps) saying what you liked/disliked, and fine tune your selections? That's what Moennig did with his favorite customers.
It's less a crapshoot than getting a so-called "vintage" Moennig.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-04-10 04:21
I believe that when Hans Moennig made a barrel it was made to match the specific instrument he was working on.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-10 04:53
Steven Ocone wrote:
> I believe that when Hans Moennig made a barrel it was made to
> match the specific instrument he was working on.
>
Most of the instruments his customers played were Buffets that were nominally made with consistent dimensions. He tweaked things when he thought he needed to. But if you bought a new R13 A or Bb from him, he knew what was needed for those instruments and he had standard barrel dimensions that he knew would work. He sold a lot of R13s. I imagine he had to do some tweaking if a customer came in with a Selmer CT or 9/9* or some model of Leblanc or some other non-Buffet.
And you didn't dare bring your 10G to him, so he didn't need to know how to accommodate those.
Karl
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-10 01:36
I introduced the #2 Morse Taper Mr. Smale. You are correct if you've insinuated it was me. But if you read my post it was done for the purposes of trying to say that if an original barrel can't be found for the poster, "replicas" have and can be made, and his original request can possibly be serviced that way. The taper only came up as the larger means to the ends of serving the poster's need, which I never lost sight of.
My second post also discussed the barrel's possibly unknown methodology for reaming to make the case that the poster may find it best to just buy one made recently as a method of solving his problem.
That the topic then developed a life of its own....that you were convinced that the information I had was wrong regarding reamers based on a test of one, that hourglass shapes and where those hourglasses were formed along the length, and rubber inserts, and rounded edges...
I guess like Detectives say, "the facts go where the facts go.."
I'll I'm saying is that sometimes we see a thread of interest and forget about the poster: something this poster all but tried to prevent. Perhaps I have done this at times myself.
Post Edited (2014-04-10 05:40)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-10 02:32
to OP.
have you looked inside your teacher's the barrel? It is possible that it has less overtones b/c of the finish, not b/c of the taper difference. Also is the edge sharp or rounded? is there a variation on socket depth? have you used the same MPC in both cases?
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