 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orangeclarinet
Date: 2013-12-21 06:15
Hi I'm a senior in high school and an all-stater (Texas). I'm auditioning for colleges beginning January.
I've had sample lessons with some college professors and have noticed that the way they teach/interpret etudes are different than how I have been taught to play them for all-state auditions.
I'd like some insight as to why public school teaching of music differs so much from what college professors expect. Obviously, college is a much higher level, but how come the approaches are so different?
For example, if I were to stretch a lot of the notes (like the professors tell me to), I would have points taken off from a region/area judging panel. However, if I play an etude "all-state style" for a professor, he might say that it is too metronomic and doesn't have enough expression.
I'm not trying to criticize either perspective, I'm just curious as to why there is such a difference. I'd like a better understanding so that I can adjust my auditions according to how it will be judged. I find myself questioning certain musical elements because I don't know if it will be approved by the judge/professor. Does anyone have any advice on how to interpret pieces so that they appeal to the judge?
Post Edited (2013-12-21 11:18)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-12-21 11:17
Hi Orange,
Quote:
Obviously, college is a much higher level, but how come the approaches are so different?
They shouldn't be.
If your rubato is well-prepared, fluid, not over-done, and is in service to the music, it should be recognized as such and not receive a penalty.
If it sounds abrupt, is un-prepared, overdone, a-rhythmic, etc...and is not in service to the music it will receive a penalty.
(well-prepared = the goal note you intend to stretch is preceded by notes that stretch to prepare the audience, followed by notes that move forward to offset the stretching...you know...rubato!)
Now -- that said: I'm not in Texas and hopefully one of the BB members who is in Texas will respond.
In Virginia we have one prepared etude as part of the audition to All-State. It's newly composed each year, and the kids have just short of three weeks to learn it. I stress to my students that it must be music -- you have to leave an impression on the judges, who will hear that etude many times. It must be rhythmic and flexible, NOT metronomic. So, needless to say, my students use rubato and they are usually very well received.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2013-12-21 16:18)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-12-21 16:20
Another way of thinking of it. If you play the etude with rubato and receive deductions for poor rhythm, we know one of two things is true:
1. Your rubato is not very good.
2. Your judges don't know much about music.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2013-12-21 18:21
No.2 gets my vote.
In my state, we get judges that (to be charitable) are not that sophisticated. This is due to the poor compensation and a disdain for professional musicians by the sponsoring organization.
I always make clear to my students the practical reasons that prohibit the use of rubato. I don't even let them correct wrong notes in the (required) edition, because the judges will deem the correction as a "wrong note"!
However, I also stress that one would never perform this way in the real world.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-12-21 14:25
You asked an excellent question, and you have received some excellent answers. I can certainly understand why you are feeling frustrated.
Because music is an art, there is more than one correct way to do things. Professionals disagree. If you were to take that etude to five different clarinet professors, you would probably get five different opinions as to how it should be played. I think the approaches would be similar--perhaps very similar--but there would still be small differences.
When I was getting my undergraduate degree in the 70s, I studied with two teachers with two similar, but different approaches. Teacher 2 disagreed with teacher 1's approach to tonguing. When I continued with my masters degree, there were two additional teachers (the first one only briefly), and they had their own unique ways of doing things.
When I went to my first lesson with grad school teacher no. 1, a major orchestra professional and excellent player with a bad temper, he looked at an etude that had been marked up by undergrad professor no. 2. "Who marked it this way?" he roared. I meekly answered that an undergrad professor had done it. "That's exactly the wrong way to do it!" he screamed.
I have other stories I can share, but I'll save them for another time.
Still, I can well understand your frustration, but please understand that these things happen. In my state, there was recently a major audition for a high school honors band, and the tempo that was required for the etude was so incorrect it was ridiculous. The state music teachers association refused to back down and admit their error. I can only imagine what the poor students going through the audition went through.
Post Edited (2013-12-21 19:27)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2013-12-21 19:44
Many of the Band Directors are lightweights. So they do what they can, but it's nothing like College.
There are judges for Districts, States that do NOT want any flexibility in the printed part. As I heard at a District Band Judges meeting "this is a Band Directors Festival, not a Private Teachers Festival".
Uh, right............ Performance practice be damned.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-21 14:45
Orange, are you studying with a private teacher or are you being coached by your school band director? I hope you have a private clarinet teacher - one who plays the instrument well and knows clarinet literature, including the piece you've prepared for All-state.
The attitude in the auditions sponsored by teacher organizations (mostly, I guess, NAfME, FKA MENC, and its state affiliates) is often that students must play the printed text of the required edition with no variation so that comparisons and placement become mechanical and "objective" (not based in any way on the judge's personal taste or musical approach). I'm afraid I do the same thing with my private students that rmk54 does - I have them learn the printed content and then explain where the misprints are, the background for historically debatable passage renditions (like the passage in the coda in the Rondo of the Mozart Concerto) and possible stylistic touches and expressive gestures that I think are musically appropriate. I then stress that *for the audition* they should play the edition literally. I feel I need to do this because I have no way to know if the band director who will be judging in the clarinet solo room is a musician or a fool - we have both in abundance in the music education profession.
When you audition for college admission, you have to assume the judge is a musician - why would you even be auditioning for the college if you don't respect the faculty's level of musicianship? Yes, the level of expectation is likely to be considerably higher among college professors than it is among high school band-director-judges. After all, most of the kids who make All-State bands - even the ones in the higher chairs - don't go on to make careers in music. You're competing, in the case of a major university with a high quality faculty and program, not with the better-playing kids in your state, but nationally.
The auditioning professor is generally judging the talent level and "teachability" of the prospective student as well as the technical level the student has already achieved. The All-State (or District, if that's where your state begins the process) judges only really want to determine who is most able to learn and execute the music for the upcoming concert. Can you play with good tone, accurate rhythm and correct notes at an appropriate tempo?
Karl
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Author: orangeclarinet
Date: 2013-12-21 21:46
kdk- I have a lesson teacher. he does happen to be a band director (not at my school), but he's a much better player than the average band director and really knows music. he's also one of the judges for my region/area. Sometimes he'll tell me that even though what i'm doing is musical, I shouldn't do it in the audition because some judge next to him might take points off.
My band director is really pushing for me to place high in all-state this year. He says that it will really impress the music schools I'm auditioning for. But I've already met one professor who openly expressed his disapproval of TMEA.
I guess this is just something I'll have to adapt to. Thank you so much for your comments. I feel so much better now knowing that I'm not the only one who deals with these discrepancies.
Post Edited (2013-12-21 23:14)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-21 22:06
orangeclarinet wrote:
> kdk- I have a lesson teacher. he does happen to be a band
> director (not at my school), but he's a much better player than
> the average band director and really knows music. he's also one
> of the judges for my region/area. Sometimes he'll tell me that
> even though what i'm doing is musical, I shouldn't do it in the
> audition because some judge next to him might take points off.
>
Then he's put it in a nutshell for you - what you play depends some on the purpose of the playing - and neither you nor he has any control over who will be hearing your audition for TMEA, so you're stuck "doing it by the book."
> My band director is really pushing for me to place high in
> all-state this year. He says that it will really impress the
> music schools I'm auditioning for. But I've already met one
> professor who openly expressed his disapproval of TMEA.
>
It may be that your band director doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows about what college teachers want - or the professor you met has a particularly elitist attitude toward the audition process in Texas (or toward bands in general) and isn't typical. I don't know that there's any "general rule" that describes high-level teachers' attitudes toward either. Besides, there's an entire department of any college or university devoted to evaluating an applicant's high school record, and *high level achievement in your chosen major field during high school may well impress the admissions screeners far more than the music faculty members.* You need both the admissions department and the music department to approve your admission.
That said, I think your band director is walking a thin line if he's truly "pushing for [you] to place high in all-state..." Pushing you to do any better than your best, whatever that is, can create an unnecessary level of pressure in you and can easily be counterproductive. Practice to play as well as you're able, and then you have to let the competitive chips fall where they may.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2013-12-21 23:18
Karl, as usual you provide wise advice, especially when you say "practice to play as well as you're able, and then you have to let the competitive chips fall where they may."
Orangeclarinet, you're discovering as you head to the college level that band directors and clarinet specialists sometimes see things differently. Having said this, some high school band directors really are wonderful private clarinet teachers. I studied with one of these people when I was in high school, and he took me to a very high level, providing me with excellent preparation for college.
In band music, there really isn't a lot of room for personal expression. You generally play the music exactly as written. This is even more true in marching band--by the way, are you planning to march in college? Private clarinet teachers often look at things differently.
I've commented on this before, and I'll do it again. It is very common in colleges for band directors to pressure students to march (especially those in music ed.), while private teachers pressure these same students not to march!
I know I'm wandering a bit off topic here, but this discussion made we wonder about college faculty who do double duty. I'm aware of a few college brass players who teach/taught private lessons while also directing the college concert and/or marching band. When Sherman Friedland was at Concordia, he also directed the school's orchestra. Are there any college/university clarinet teachers who also direct the school's concert or marching band?
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Author: brycon
Date: 2013-12-21 23:36
Quote:
Because music is an art, there is more than one correct way to do things. Professionals disagree. If you were to take that etude to five different clarinet professors, you would probably get five different opinions as to how it should be played. I think the approaches would be similar--perhaps very similar--but there would still be small differences.
Although there is more than one "correct" way of playing something, there is also a myriad of incorrect ways, one of which is playing exactly what's written on the page and nothing more.
The fact that this approach is necessary to do well in a highschool audition goes to show you how screwed up the process is...
Post Edited (2013-12-21 23:37)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2013-12-22 13:11
Quote:
My band director is really pushing for me to place high in all-state this year. He says that it will really impress the music schools I'm auditioning for. But I've already met one professor who openly expressed his disapproval of TMEA.
Orange -- that makes sense, doesn't it? If you'd be penalized at All-State auditions for playing in a tasteful musical way, why would the clarinet professor be impressed by placing highly in audition?
When they see high all-state success on the music resume of an applying student, it would be an indicator that they lack some musical maturity...
...or that they understand how to play the hand that they're dealt.
You know from your private teacher what you should do. Play it boring at All State, play musically for college auditions.
Best of luck to you in both!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2013-12-22 13:57
I am both a college clarinet instructor and a teacher of high school students. I always instruct my high school students to play musically, with attention to the details of the music, and have had over two hundred All-State students over the years. When listening to perspective college clarinetists, I listen for musicality and potential. I am equally interested in a perspective student's academic achievements, leadership and social skills, as well as their musical level. Successful college students tend to have an ability to receive instruction, possess an excellent work ethic, and the discipline to succeed. Allstate is just a beginning, not an end. I have a friend who is a long time Principal in a major symphony orchestra who never was able to make the All-State as a high school student.
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