 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2013-08-27 18:51
Anybody has any experience with this company? They have many listings on Ebay, mainly student clarinets and other stuff. They offer many barrels too, and that's what I'm curious about. Has anybody tried those barrels?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-27 19:56
I bought one of their cocobolo barrels (because it was pretty, and inexpensive). Looks good and works fine. That's all I know. Not sure how they managed to hijack the "Martin Freres" name, maybe it went out of copyright, or they just use it without permission as I presume the Vietnamese stole the "Kohlert" name. Whatever.... I like the barrel.
For those who don't know, the French Martin Freres company goes way back, hundreds of years. I have one of their wood Bb clarinets and one of their wood bass clarinets, both ca. 1950s or 60s as far as I can tell, and both are very nice-sounding instruments. Again, no relationship that I'm aware of with the eBay sellers.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-08-27 20:32
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> For those who don't know, the French Martin Freres company goes
> way back, hundreds of years.
one of their prototype clarinets was in the cargo hold of the Mayflower, but an unfortunate deck hand used it as a fog horn when Moby Dick went ballistic about the flat low E and hurled the poor soul over board. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2013-08-27 20:34)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-27 20:42
Back in Biblical days, Gabriel tried to blow down the walls of Jericho with a Martin Freres clarinet, but it wasn't quite loud enough. So he tried a trumpet instead, and the rest, as they say, is history..............
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-08-28 01:13
> Back in Biblical days, Gabriel tried to blow down the walls of Jericho with a
> Martin Freres clarinet, but it wasn't quite loud enough.
expected; sad but expected
> So he tried a trumpet instead, and the rest, as they say, is history..............
was it a Couturier? Martin committee?
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-08-28 05:12
So he tried a trumpet instead, and the rest, as they say, is history..............
Or fantasy.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-28 17:45
This thread is getting out of control. We're dragging religion vs. history into the discussion (bad enough on a clarinet-centric forum) but what is really frightening is that somebody is confusing the American Martin company (e.g. Committee model trumpet) with the unrelated French Martin Freres company (vintage clarinets).
An appalling mess.
Mark or GBK, please pull the plug before we drag global warming and the true meaning of "Brevettes SGDG" into this thread!
![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-28 21:01
Seems that a company called Merimax is using the Martin Freres name. The president is Darlene Ciarcia who seems to be employed as a software engineer elsewhere. Vice president is Daniel Ciarcia. I've not heard of either before.
Repair prices are a fraction of what I charge. It makes me wonder.
Steve Ocone
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-08-28 23:52
> but what is really frightening is that somebody is confusing the American Martin company (e.g. Committee model trumpet) with the unrelated French Martin Freres company (vintage clarinets).
and to make it even worse John Henry Martin was German~ (and Martin Freres French!).
Then there is question of quality; we all know Miles Davis played Handcraft Committees through his carrier, but were Frereses good enough for Tony Scott?
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-29 17:29
It's true! We are in the process of the reestablishment of the Martin Freres Company. For that we are grateful. And perhaps, one day, our attorneys will let us tell the story. Meanwhile...
Here's what we can say. We're a team of acoustic, software and manufacturing engineers that do what we love most! We design, prototype, produce and market clarinets and components.
The student clarinets, the B-88/B-88A (just google B-88 clarinet), are doing very well for us. In October '13, we will release the 34-Series Bb and Eb Soprano clarinets as Advanced Student Models (all great sounding composites).
Then in November '13, the Intermediate Rosewood 44-Series, Grenadilla 66-Series and Grenadilla 77-Series models will be released.
Professional models will be shipping by Q2 2014 and they are going to be made of a VERY DIFFERENT exotic wood with absolutely fabulous acoustics. Which exotic wood? I'm so glad that you want to know!
Visit us: MartinFreres.net
Dan Ciarcia
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
Post Edited (2013-09-05 13:47)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-29 18:29
Sounds good, Dan. Since you're all engineers, perhaps you know the difference between "plastics" and "composites" and will correct your marketing accordingly? Unless of course your new clarinets really are made of carbon-fiber or glass-fiber composites, which I sort of doubt. Yes, I realize that "composites" sounds better than "plastic", but let's call a spade a spade, shall we?
Nitpicks aside, I still like the barrel I bought from you, keep up the good work.
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-29 21:12
You are correct! We do know the definition of the word composite. No need to doubt it. Our ABS is blended with other "secret ingredients," so by definition, then, the Martin Freres Company B88, B34 and E34 clarinets are 'technically' made of composites. And, yes, you are correct again, it is not cost effective nor acoustically necessary to use carbon-fiber or glass-fiber materials.
Thanks for your support, David!
Dan Ciarcia
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-29 21:26
I guess we're misunderstanding each other, Dan -- in my understanding a true "composite" is a non-homogeneous combination of dissimilar materials, typically a fabric, glass or metallic strength member encapsulated by a resin material. A resin such as used in clarinets (be it ABS, acrylic, hard rubber, Bakelite etc.) is a homogeneous material (it 'looks' the same in all directions), regards of what mix of chemicals goes into the resin. Does that make sense? So unless your clarinet is made of some sort of layup of fibers (or fabric or whatever) in a resin matrix, then it is a plastic and not a composite, if I'm correct.
Permit me to excerpt Wikipedia, which admittedly is not always 100% correct but usually gets pretty close:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Composite materials (also called composition materials or shortened to composites) are materials made from two or more constituent materials with significantly different physical or chemical properties, that when combined, produce a material with characteristics different from the individual components. The individual components remain separate and distinct within the finished structure.
Typical engineered composite materials include:
Composite building materials such as cements, concrete
Reinforced plastics such as fiber-reinforced polymer
Metal Composites
Ceramic Composites (composite ceramic and metal matrices)"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought you guys were engineers?
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2013-08-29 21:28
Dan,
any plans for non-plastic Eb Sopranos?
Also by any chance do you guys used any original Marin Freres clarinets for voicing your production models? (hope none of them got hurt in the process)
Good luck with your endeavour!
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-29 22:41
Thanks for your support, David!
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-29 23:31
Yes, wooden Eb Sopranos are being planned. Stay tuned!
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
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Author: Rezzie
Date: 2013-08-30 02:37
Dan, you certainly have tweaked some interest in here, and from me.
Someday, I'll have to hear that story. Will contact you via your website.
Your site is interesting, to say the least.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-30 14:12
I am happy for any effort to use new designs and materials for clarinets. There has been little advancement in materials and designs till lately. I presume it is because most instrument makers follow tradition and haven't had backgrounds in materials science (or a lot of extra cash to do R&D).
Steve Ocone
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-30 15:56
"There has been little advancement in materials and designs till lately."
Not true at all. Much experimentation with materials and designs happened in the late 1800s through the mid-20th century, with all sorts of materials being used for clarinets, including various metals (brass, silver, aluminum), plastics (Bakelite, hard rubber, acrylic, ABS, acetal, polypropylene), glass, and numerous species of woods (even laminates such as the Conn Pan American "propeller wood" instruments).
All sorts of design variations have been tried, including Albert, Oehler, Boehm, Pupeschi, Mazzeo, Reform Boehm, McIntyre, Benade NX, etc. etc.
The reason we're left with just a few of these materials and systems dominating the marketplace is a combination of engineering efficiency (they work, and they're reasonably simple), and good old marketing (they sell).
Consider the analogy of commercial aviation -- think of how many variations on the airliner have been tried since the Wright Brothers' day, and yet today, just about every commercial jetliner (for example) has swept wings with two or four podded engines underneath, a cylindrical fuselage, and cruises around 500 mph. Boring, yes --- but just as with clarinets, the aircraft industry has converged on just a few designs that work well, are efficient, are relatively easy to build, and are acceptable to the customers.
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-30 18:16
If we pay attention to the spirit of the comment, to say that there has been "little or no advancement" is generally true. There are plenty of examples of manufacturers making occasional changes and improvements, but the fact remains that when one walks into a music shop to purchase a clarinet today, one has virtually the same range of choices in materials and designs as was available by WWII.
The point of discussing the designs, the materials and other engineering aspects of the clarinet in a non-engineering forum is to discuss how bringing forth changes in these things can help manufacturers provide better acoustics.
And, to Rezzie, thanks for your support!
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
Post Edited (2013-08-31 12:12)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2013-08-30 18:40
And my point was that the reason the clarinets we buy today are nearly identical to the clarinets being sold by WWII is because at that point in the clarinet's evolution its design and materials were nearly optimized. They were/are about as good as they're going to get, for their purpose, and without requiring retraining of the clarinetists (as required for other fingering systems).
And what do you mean by "better" acoustics? Are you planning to change the fundamental tone quality of the clarinet? If so, it won't be a "clarinet" any more, will it? And the intonation of modern clarinets (in most of the better brands and models) is excellent and well within the abilities of average-to-better players to correct what minor deviations remain (and of course remembering that whenever we're playing along with one or more other musicians, we have to tune WITH them, every note -- so some pitch flexibility is actually desirable).
If, on the other hand, you're talking about improving manufacturing efficiency (a la Chinese manufacturers) to bring YOUR costs down, then you had better make sure you're still delivering a high-quality product while passing at least part of that cost reduction along to the buyer -- or else your product serves no useful purpose in the marketplace.
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-08-30 20:43
When speaking about better acoustics I am talking about after-market components to improve upon vintage designs. Much of what we do is customize solutions for clients that want to be able to play the older pieces that they've collected.
I agree that today's quality clarinets have reached a point where to achieve better intonation is unnecessary. However, few clarinets of that caliber are affordable enough for a family to purchase in the "hope" that Johnny will stick with it. For the student market, there still remains a need for improved acoustics. I observe far too may students learning on clarinets that have poor quality of sound.
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2013-08-30 22:57
MKr. Spiegalthal has a point- there has been development throughout the years. But, as someone who repairs clarinets for a living, I see room for advancement in both materials and designs. Some issues get overlooked because we are used to them.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Clarnetamaphone
Date: 2013-08-31 02:44
Ridenour Clarinet Products
1-888-AKUSTIK
ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2013-09-02 00:20)
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Author: Clarnetamaphone
Date: 2013-09-01 20:46
Ridenour Clarinet Products
1-888-AKUSTIK
ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2013-09-02 00:21)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2013-09-04 13:22
I suppose if an advertiser uses this forum to advertise, then he can expect some feedback comments. I did not like what I saw in this martinfreres.net web site. Just more of the same old...
1. "Company factory has at least one example of virtually every make of every clarinet brand (including variations) for play-testing your barrel prior to shipping."
Out of curiosity, approximately how many would that be?
2. "The Ringless Traditional Style Grenadilla Wood Bb Clarinet Barrel is made of beautiful and extremely dense, instrument-quality Grenadilla Wood that provides better overall intonation and a better timbre-match* (especially for throat tones) when compared to the typical clarinet barrel."
So seeing most reputable brands use "beautiful, extremely dense, instrument quality grenadilla", do you attribute this amazing intonation and timbre-match solely to the ringlessness? If not, explain.
3. Can we expect the "synthetic", "ebonite" (i.e. hard rubber) body of the B-88 to go green and stink like hard rubber mouthpieces do? Or have you overcome this issue somehow.
4. How does the brittleness of this hard rubber compare with the commonly used student-clarinet ABS plastic?
5. Steel springs on the B-88. I thought we had moved away form this unreliable material. Anything wrong with good quality stainless steel? (Especially if corrosive vapours are given off by aging hard rubber.)
6. "INCLUDES Lifetime Warranty!" Please explain exactly what this means.
7. The bore of a barrel is surely its most significant feature. Is the bore of the additional, $50 cocobola barrel of the B-88A any different from that of the standard barrel of the B-88??
8. "Model 34 (B-34): High Quality Polymer"
Come on! That's not good enough for a spec from an "engineer"! Which polymer? There are zillions of them (including the hard rubber ("ebonite") of the B-88! Is it the typical, student-clarinet ABS, or is there something somehow special. If so, then what exactly is special?
9. "Model 34 (B-34): ... precision post, spring and key-work, better action and superior intonation"
Now you're talking. I hope that doesn't make a masked statement about the other student models being inferior in these respects. I actually expect all these features in any standard student clarinet. In a factory with half-decent QC, surely this does not cost more (unless - dare I say it - these aspects are actually significantly compromised in the cheaper models.)
10. "Model B-66 Ebony Wood"
I have some concern with the developing marketing fashion of making clarinets from timbers other than mpingo ("grenadilla"). Mpingo has been used for a long time because it has many excellent qualities for woodwinds. This writer - http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100509145742AAeMfnZ - is not the only one to express concern about the use of ebony...
He writes "Clarinets are rarely made of ebony (Diosyros sp) though we tend to call any dark/black wood ebony. Real ebony (Diosyros) is too brittle to make a good clarinet from - it cracks from the changes in moisture."
Surely an astute buyer would be better advised to choose the very reliable ABS plastic.
11. "Model 1740 Grenadilla Wood Professional Bb Clarinet... We have several VINTAGE Model 1740 Grenadilla Wood Bb Clarinets available starting at $899 US"
Come on! Unless you are advertising second hand clarinets that are at least a few decades old, this is a corruption of the use of the word "vintage". That smacks to me of a marketing attempt to deceive the gullible - I'm not impressed!
12. "Clarinet Refabrication.... Wooden Bb: $179. Composite (presumably actually meaning plastic): $99"
Is it true that you can take a clarinet, any brand, any age, with several rusted pivots, several loose posts, sloppy point pivots, wobbly middle tenon, 4 failing tenon corks, several rusted springs, a crack or two, total repad required, replace all other soft materials, etc, for those prices? If not, then please state exactly what you ARE trying to say, because this to me is what a "refabrication" would be. And what quality and manufacturer) of pads would you be using?
13. "Grenadilla Clarinet Crack Repair: $75 per crack "
Is it the same, whether it is a barely visible, 2 cm crack, or a crack that goes through several tone holes and needs several pins (or equivalent)? If not, then please explain, so as not to mislead.
14. "Composite Clarinet Crack Repair: $60 per crack"
Presumably "composite" means "polymer" (i.e. "plastic"). The only cracks I have seen in plastic clarinets go across the clarinet, eg a tenon broken off. Is $60 the price to graft a replacement, or simply glue it back, or some other technique? Without clarification, this price too, is misleading.
15. "Most keys can be located and shipped within a week. If we can’t locate a key, we’ll manufacture it!... Whole Sets of Clarinet Keys are $125 each set + S&H for qty 17 keys."
Does this mean that if I have a clarinet body - any brand/model - then I can ask you to ship a set of keys and they will fit snugly and operate freely. [I am refraining from swearing here!] And are they padded? (If so, what pads?) Are they "corked"? Unless you clarify you are grossly misleading! As it stands, This would seem to be a statement to the gullible that you can provide a miraculous service.
16. "Does Your Clarinet Have a Broken Post ... Most posts can be located and shipped within a week. If we can’t locate a post, we’ll manufacture it!"
Perhaps it should be explained, for the readers who are not aware, one cannot buy a post and simply screw it into a hole and have it function. Posts are installed, THEN flat-faced, drilled and tapped.
17. "Most Clarinet Tune-Ups including New Pads, New Tenon Cork and New Key Cork are completed in just a few business days and will last for years! Typical cost to Tune Up a Clarinet is $85 "
And I would ask: What model and brand of pad is being used. What materials are being used for tenon "corks" and key "corks"? What adhesive is being used for the above?
And then, in light of my knowledge of what materials do the job reliably and well, and and the cost of these materials, and the time needed to install them well, I would say 3 things: Buyer beware! Buyer beware!! Buyer beware!!!
18. "How to Oil a Grenadilla Wood Clarinet... bore oil is typically made of mineral oil ..... or other light oil) "
So pretty much any oil is OK? I would expect better and more specific advice from "engineers", and advice that does not fly in the face of the experts of our time in this field.
19. "Because the grenadilla is naturally saturated in oil as it grows, the oils inherent to this tree remain in the climate controlled wood even generations after it is carved into a clarinet."
Just curious: Are you saying that the live timber is saturated with oil - no water? And are you saying that the natural oil naturally remains in the timber for generations in the climate controlled environment say of a a museum?
"Store your grenadilla wood clarinet in a climate controlled environment."
Hmm. I take it you mean an air conditioned environment? Many air conditioned environments are rather dry, which encourages the clarinet to crack once it becomes wet inside the bore from playing. Your "engineers" would know this?
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Author: DanCiarcia
Date: 2013-09-05 13:45
I appreciate all of the comments and hopefully constructive criticisms of the Martin Freres Company product and marketing found throughout this thread. We realize that it's unlikely that we can satisfy everyone. Our goal is to satisfy each of our customers and to ensure that they receive the best instrument available for their investment. And, that's exactly what we do every day!
-DC
--- You play the drums, you play the guitar, but you live and you breathe the CLARINET!
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