 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-27 23:17
Hi!
Currently, I play on an E-11 Clarinet with an M-30 Vandoren Mouthpiece.
I play on the standard 64.5mm barrel that comes with the E-11, but I was looking to get a longer barrel to bring my pitch down. I am always considerably sharp and have to pull out a ridiculous amount.
My first question was whether I should get a 67 or 68mm barrel. I've read that the standard barrel for tuning at 440 Hz is 67mm, but because I am so dang sharp, I'm thinking a more drastic change might be necessary. Having never experimented with clarinet barrels, I have no idea how much a millimeter or two will affect my pitch.
The next question I have is the one you've probably heard a million times; which clarinet barrel should I get? I understand much of the decision is based on personal preference and trying out the barrel first-hand, but surely there are some barrels superior to others and barrels better suited for my particular set-up. The most popular ones seem to be the Moennig, Chadash, and the Clark W Forbes line? Though if you can inform me of other good clarinet barrels, that would be great! I just generally want to know which barrel people here seem to prefer.
I'm also considering getting a few clarinet tuning rings (as they are a much cheaper alternative). Unfortunately, I am not familiar with how they work, so if someone could enlighten me, it would be much appreciated. I am a very incompetent person when it comes to dealing with the technical aspects of the clarinet (like fixing, repairing, adjusting, etc.), so if it is a hassle to use, it is something I would probably avoid. I was also wondering if they would affect my tone at all.
Thank you very much for your time!
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-27 23:48
How far out of tune does your clarinet play when it is pulled out a few millimeters? 20 cents, 30 cents, more? Depending on how serious the sharpness is, I would suggest perhaps a 66mm, 67 if it is greater than 30 cents. I don't know about you or anyone else, but I like to have a little bit of elbow room rather than a perfect fit-- my Tosca plays perfectly in tune when it is warmed up with my 65mm barrel. If it is the least bit cold or not completely warmed up, it plays flat... that's why I was given a 64.5mm barrel. Keep in mind, it is usually easier to "lip down" than to "lip up", which is why I prefer my elbow room.
When you try barrels, try as many as possible and check them with a tuner (<--!!!!!!!!!!!!). Not every barrel will work in terms of pitch with your horn. Perhaps it is because I haven't been lucky enough to find the "right barrels", but in terms of tone, I have found the differences between barrels (with similar pitch tendencies) are so subtle that I don't pay a lot of attention to them. I use different barrels solely for making pitch adjustments easier, not so much for tone.
If possible, I suggest trying as many different brands as possible. Despite how many people I see playing on Morrie Backun's barrels, they just don't seem to work well with my horn and my setup (or my wallet!). I and a few of my colleagues have had good results with John Weir's barrels. Check it out!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
Post Edited (2012-05-27 23:50)
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-27 23:57
Haha, thank you very much for the reply.
That's true, it's much easier to adjust my pitch downwards than it is to raise it. I certainly don't want to get a barrel that's too long and have to search for a shorter one :P
If the barrel really does not affect the tone noticeably, perhaps I do not need to spend $200ish on a barrel? However, I care about tone considerably more than my pitch, and the last thing I want to do is sacrifice my tone for better intonation.
And thanks again, I will check those barrels out!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-05-28 00:10
I. Lee, Check your personal email shortly.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-28 00:16
That is just my own experience-- there are plenty of clarinetists who have found barrels that enhance their tone considerably.
Now despite the differences that I have not found between barrels in terms of tone, I do NOT suggest buying one of those $50 barrels off Ebay from shady sellers-- they really could be great, but I would be terrified to risk it. They could have serious intonation issues that could make the barrel useless. If I were you, I would start with some Moennig or Chadash barrels. They aren't as expensive as other barrels and they could definitely help you get an idea of what works and what doesn't.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-28 00:17
^^ And Alan there also makes some great barrels!
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-28 01:56
Thanks Allan, I've replied and checked out your barrels! ^^
Ah, I see, thanks again Beth! Yeah, the Moennig and the Chadash seem to be real solid barrels because just about everyone has recommended them to me.
Of the two, do you prefer one over the other?
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-28 02:00
I can't say because I have never really tried either of them.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-05-28 02:12
For me, the Moenning is an easier transition of a reverse taper bore. It should get you more focused sound in the throat register. I have had some tuning issues with Chadash. They tend to really bring the top throat notes up too much (for me).
I notice a slight tone change from barrel to barrel, some that have kept me using them despite only a minor difference. I think you'll find a greater difference going to a model with a ringless design (like Doctor Segal's), but for the most part they can change tuning, dynamics and your approach to playing more than your timbre.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-28 02:14
Oh okay, thanks anyways!
I took a look at the John Weir barrels. I've noticed that they come in 4 different styles: Grenadilla AM, Exotic Wood AM, EU style Hidden Ring Grenadilla, and EU Hidden Ring Exotic Wood. I was wondering if you happened to know the differences each of these styles have on the sound and which one you prefer (if you've tried more than one of these).
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-28 02:17
@Paul Aviles- Thanks for your input! I also have a particularly tough time reigning in those top throat tones, so it's very valuable information to me. I was wondering what difference the inclusion/exclusion of the ring makes?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-05-28 02:30
I. Lee wrote:
> I play on the standard 64.5mm barrel that comes with the E-11,
> but I was looking to get a longer barrel to bring my pitch
> down. I am always considerably sharp and have to pull out a
> ridiculous amount.
>
Maybe it would be good to know how much is "a ridiculous amount."
> My first question was whether I should get a 67 or 68mm barrel.
Probably the most likely length would be slightly shorter than the total of 64.5 and the amount that you're pulling out, but if that total is longer than 67 mm, I'd look for some other cause for at least some of the sharpness. I don't think an E11 should need even 67 mm to play in tune if everything else is right.
> I've read that the standard barrel for tuning at 440 Hz is
> 67mm... Having never experimented
> with clarinet barrels, I have no idea how much a millimeter or
> two will affect my pitch.
>
This depends on the design of the clarinet and the pitch tendency of your mouthpiece, but both my (very old) R-13 and my (only slightly newer) Selmer 10G Bb clarinets came standard with 66 mm barrels. But, again, you can get a rough idea of how much a millimeter will affect your pitch by finding out how much pulling out a millimeter changes it. It may not be exactly equal to the effect of a longer barrel, because internal design plays a part as well, but it will give you an idea.
> I'm also considering getting a few clarinet tuning rings (as
> they are a much cheaper alternative). Unfortunately, I am not
> familiar with how they work, so if someone could enlighten me,
> it would be much appreciated.
Tuning rings fit into the bottom socket of the barrel and are meant to effectively lengthen the barrel by the thickness of the ring while filling in the gap that exists between the top of the tenon and the top of the socket when you simply pull the barrel out. Some players find (or at least believe) that the gap causes response issues because of turbulence caused by the interruption to the smooth bore surface. There was a long and at times acrimonious debate in another recent thread about how much, if any, effect this has. The one problem I've had when I've tried tuning rings is that they sometimes fall out unexpectedly when I take the barrel off to swab it, sometimes get stuck when I want to change rings, and in general don't, in my opinion, solve a problem large enough to be worth the slight inconvenience. But your mileage may differ. They aren't expensive enough to prevent trying them - the worst you'll be out is a few dollars. They come in sets - I think 4 - each a different thickness up to a millimeter.
Karl
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-28 03:02
Karl- I have no doubt that some of the sharpness is due to my embrochure, but both my private instructor and peers have told me a longer barrel would help. My pitch fluctuates depending on the environment/day, but just today it was a good twenty cents sharp despite being pulled out like 2.5mm (67mm with barrel length). I'll have to test it out more frequently though; admittedly, I have not kept accurate records of how sharp I am each day, but I guess I'll start doing that.
Ah I see, thanks for that. I don't think I'll be needing them then. I've never noticed much of a difference due to pulling out.
Thanks for your help!
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Author: bethmhil
Date: 2012-05-28 05:14
I use the hidden ring grenadilla barrel-- though the effect is minimal, it does darken my tone. My teacher uses the cocobolo wood barrel with external rings. My other colleagues use the same style barrel as I do, and they also like them a lot. When I tried a bunch of John's barrels a little over a year ago, I never had crazy intonation fluctuations that I experienced when trying other brands and manufacturers. What's nice about John's barrels is that, as opposed to a ringless Backun barrel, they have hidden rings which guard against cracking.
BMH
Illinois State University, BME and BM Performance
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-05-28 19:21
It might be worth noting here that, for a long time, Buffet considered the E11 to be a wooden student model and they configure it to play around A = 442 so that beginners, whose embouchure is not well developed, will be able to play in tune with school ensembles. There is a message somewhere in the archives of this Board in which a spokesman for Buffet (possibly Francois Kloc) says that the way they achieved 442 was simply by including a short barrel as original equipment. As I recall, the spokesman went on to say that the E11 should play in tune for most (more developed) players with a 66 mm barrel. Depending on your embouchure, you might need a 67 but a 68 is pretty extreme. I agree with Karl that you ought to be able to get a pretty good idea of the length you need by adding the distance you need to pull out when you tune to 64.5.
If you search the archives of the Klarinet list and perhaps early threads on this list, I think you will find that, in contrast to Paul's experience, the general consensus has been that Moennig barrels provide a little more color (or "ring") to one's tone than Chadash barrels but Chadash barrels give a little better tuning. That is my experience as well and I used Chadash and Moennig barrels exclusively on my R13s for a long time. If the face of conflicting evidence, I think you would be wise to keep an open mind and try for yourself.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-05-28 21:20
Sorry I got back to this thread later.
For me, the ringless barrel gives you a (for lack of a better description) a 'woodier' sound, more vibrant. Of course it is a slight difference. In the instance of my Segal barrel on the CSG, I just can't put it down !!! I did notice on an R13 Greenline that the standard Backuns had a similar affect.
Now, as for the mm increase in barrels for pitch, my experience is that this IS NOT a one for one relationship! A 2mm difference in length seems to cure almost twice the pulling out......... for me (could it be the created gap???).
At any rate, pulling out 2.5mm doesn't seem at all extreme to my tastes. In fact this is about what I prefer as a "buffer" just in case you need to bring pitch up suddenly. When you get to about a quarter of an inch it's about time to look at a longer barrel.
..................Paul Aviles
P.S. By ringless I really refer to any without METAL rings.
Post Edited (2012-05-28 21:23)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-05-28 22:49
I. Lee, since the system says you are posting from Royal Oak, I will make you this offer. I live just a few miles from you. You can have your instructor contact me, and I will arrange to lend you a 66mm barrel to try for a few days, to see if this is the right size for you. I am not interested in selling you anything, but a loan of a barrel for a couple of days will give you a pretty good idea if that will fix the problem for you.
Yo or your teacher can contact me off-list by clicking on my user name at the top of this post, That will give you my e-mail address.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-28 23:51
Thanks all! So rings protect against cracking whereas ringless makes the sound more vibrant. I guess that makes sense since the rings most likely dampen the vibration.
Jack- That clarifies a lot, thanks; there is a reason I'm always sharp :P
I see, then I think I might prefer the Moennig. I figure the Moennig will help me with my pitch a little, so I won't have to make such drastic changes for pitch anyway.
Paul- That's true, it's just I have to pull out 2.5mm, and I'm still 20 cents sharp xD Although, like I said, I'll have to test this out a lot more. And that's interesting, so a longer barrel affects the pitch more than pulling out? At least based on this result, I know the barrel will make a notable difference in pitch!
Jeff- Thanks, but I might not need it. I'm hoping I can ask my teacher or a friend to try one out, and I can always check our local Andersons or Marshalls Music store :P Just out of curiosity, are you a professional player?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-05-29 20:19
No, not by a long shot. I play for the love of it in a local community band. My fdaughter is getting ready for her senior year in music school, ans wqants to play professionally, but I never had the self-discipline to lock myself in a practice room for hours on end. I actually work at the local community college near you. 
I don't ever remember seeing barrels for sale at nderson. Don't know about Marshall. If you can't find one, let me know.
As to Moennig barrels, they were originally designed to correct issues of wide 12ths when using the Buffet R13 and some of the Chedevville mouthpieces that came out in the same period. I don't know if you have the 12th spread with your E11, but if not, different barrels will probably work better for you, instead of creating a different problem altogether.
Jeff
**EDITED TO REMOVE EMBARRASSIG TYPO!
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2012-05-30 19:35)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-05-29 20:22
JJAlbrecht wrote:
> but I never had the self-discipline to lick myself in a practice room
> for hours on end.
That sounds perverse.
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-29 22:37
Jeff- Thanks, I will let you know! Haha, oh, that's cool. My dad takes classes there I think (or at least did sometime this year). Ah yeah, same, never quite had that level of patience, though it's really cool your daughter is pursuing that career. I'm getting ready for my senior year at troy high's band! Did your daughter happen to attend there for high school?
Ohh, I see, thanks for that. My E11 is relatively new (only a few years old); I'm hoping they fixed that issue after all these years? I have no idea what a twelfth spread is though, so I wouldn't know.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2012-05-29 22:38
I. Lee wrote:
> Thanks all! So rings protect against cracking whereas ringless
> makes the sound more vibrant. I guess that makes sense since
> the rings most likely dampen the vibration.
>
The trouble with any "general rule" like this is that there are always exceptions, although I'm not really sure this even qualifies as a general truth. There's too much else to manipulate in the design of a barrel. Keep in mind that, because the barrel sockets are not reinforced by metal rings, ringless barrels must be made with thicker walls to prevent normal assembly stress from cracking them, which can cause some damping. I have a number of ringless barrels from one well-known maker that are absolutely not more vibrant sounding than the original barrels (with metal rings) than came with my instruments or the traditional (ringed) Moennig barrels I've bought in the past for them. Yet I have ringless barrels made by a different maker (which I'm currently using) that are very live and focused sounding.
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-05-30 19:34
My daughter attnded Groves in Birmingham district.
A twelfth spread is where two notes that are fingered the same (but one uses the register key to raise it a twelfth) have different tuning issues. For example, the lower regisrter note (C ojust below the staff) might be sharp, but pressing the register key gets you the G above the staff, at it might flat (or vice versa).
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-05-31 22:07
Ah, I see, thanks Karl!
Jeff- Ohh, I see. I might be having that issue; I'm certainly sharp on some notes and less sharp on others.
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-06-11 18:43
After much pondering, I decided to try out one of Allen Segal's barrels. A kind gentleman suggested the Robert Scott Barrel to me, and I was heavily considering it. I ended up getting Allen's wooden one though because the price difference was not too significant, and I think wooden tends to sound nicer than synthetic (though I heard the Muncy Synthetic Barrels do perform exceptionally).
I have to say that I couldn't be much happier with my purchase. I noticed my tone was a lot brighter and my pitch problem was significantly lessened. My private instructor was also quite ecstatic about the barrel and said he noticed a significant change, mostly for the better.
If anyone else is looking to try out a new barrel, I don't think you'd go wrong with buying one of Allen's!
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2012-06-11 18:52
make sure your mouthpiece plays in tune. that'/s teh #1 goal. mouthpieces are usually cheaper than expensive barrels that greedy people want you to buy. do'nt argue with me
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2012-06-11 19:02
btw that post above wasn't directed at anyone. just a general thing i believe that one should be aware of
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-06-11 19:42
Le9669 wrote:
> btw that post above wasn't directed at anyone. just a general
> thing i believe that one should be aware of
I think that perhaps there are multiple pieces the puzzle, with both the mouthpiece and barrel being co-dependent on each other.
Barrels and mouthpieces generally are similar in price when you get to a reasonable level.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-06-11 21:59
A wise person observed that the clarinet equation runs cephalocaudally in diminishing order of importance: Player-reed/mouthpiece-barrel-etc.
ILee, thanks for the kudos!! Glad that the barrel was ideal for you.
Yes, synthetics can and do work well, depending on the bore, and what you want to achieve.
Le9669, sounds like you've had a bad experience on some item, sold by someone, somewhere, at a high price. If you want to vent, I/we am/are an email away
Disclaimer: I sell custom barrels, and have designed for a synthetic line. In this case, I sold one to ILee that was not custom made for him, but was serendipitously available at a substantial saving, and was deemed to be a good match for what he needed.
Allan
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Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Le9669
Date: 2012-06-12 01:34
haven't had a bad experience allan. just constantly pressured into buying stuff that isn't worth the price. capitalist societies... dark... i'll shoot you an email if i ever need anything
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2012-06-12 02:31
Le9669,such societies grant you the freedom to negate or accespt "pressure."
As with guilt, You, and only YOU, create the pressure that you describe.
As for something being "dark"....... "Add some higher overtones" is the usual answer on this BB rather than a condemnation of a governing or economic policy. For that, I refer you to some forum such as, oh, say,
" newsgroup.alt. pessimistic.depressedsocietal.philosophy"
edited serveral times for syntax by A.S.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2012-06-12 14:09)
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Author: I. Lee
Date: 2012-06-12 02:41
Le9669- Haha, that's kind of sadistic xP
I guess it really depends. If you don't think it's worth the price, it's not. This purchase was definitely worth it for me though, and I think if you were to try a barrel out too (I'm guessing you haven't since you said you haven't had a bad experience?), you would agree with me. At the very least, I can tell you that Allen is certainly not just trying to separate you from your money. It's easy to tell that he put a lot of work into the barrel and that he has a passion for this kind of art.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2012-06-12 18:20
A few cxomments for Le9669:
None of the custom mouthpiece, barrel or instrument makers I have had occasion to deal with (Grabner, Smith, Backun, Segal, Ridenoutr, etc) have been con artists or thieves. They are all dedicated to providing the discerning player with the additional tools that can assist the player achieve ease of improved performance.
You are free to use their products or not. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and makes them buy barrels!
Accusing these gentlemen of malice is simply unfair and uncalled for, especially since you have had no dealings with them (your own admission).
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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