 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bryris
Date: 2003-11-19 03:15
I have done some research on this and I've gotten answers as wide spread as you can imagine.
I am 22 years old and began playing clarinet in 6th grade. I played all through highschool band and then look a leave for a few years although I was playing folk guitar, so I was keeping my music needs occupied. Near the end of my band days I began to develop a leak through my nose. Its a strange thing, because I never had a problem with it until my senior year. Now that I've gotten back into clarinet the problem is worse than ever. I've read solutions to the problem, however most of them seem to be fatigue related. However, I can take 3 days off and then pick up my clarinet again and 2 minutes into playing, I am leaking like mad. I can feel the breeze on my upper lip as I play. It really drains my air supply very quickly. I've read things about installing nose plugs. I can do that on my own when practicing at the house, but playing in public or with a group, that would be very strange.
Any advice would be great. I am going to continue to play and see if I stregnthen up, but it doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Bryan
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-19 22:00
Isn't a palatial leak something Queen Elizabeth (for example) would be annoyed by?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-19 22:37
Most palatial leaks are fixed by roofers and plumbers...GBK
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Author: mw
Date: 2003-11-19 23:42
Please keep in mind that I am not a doctor & my solution is anecdotal.
My daughter developed a significant air leak about 2 weeks before All-State a year ago.
In some cases the air leaking is the result of injury (damage) to the soft palate. Upon consulting with a physician we were told the cost & recuperation time involved. Expensive & long, respectively. We were also told that only extreme cases of injury to the soft palate require surgery.
Diagnosis from (resident & nonresident) experts was that it was more than likely related to fatigue. I thought this was possible, but improbable. Practicing 3-4 hours a day & ramping up to it slowly --- I just didn't see it. NOW, had this been a wrist problem, I would have felt differently.
I read everything about the Soft Palate at the OU Medical School. There is a very good article on SOFT PALATE PROBLEMS in THE CLARINET (years back) - quickly brought to our attention by Rick Faria @ Ithaca. I consulted with a couple of other professionals (including Robert Dilutis & Greg Smith who very helpful) as we continued to diagnose the problem.
We created a diary of time practiced, reeds, ligatures, mouthpieces, problems in playing for about the past 3 weeks & the kitchen sink of who, what, when, where & why. In review, I noted a change to a stronger reed, a Vandoren V-12 #4. My daughter had been playing a Greg Smith #1 with a Vandoren V-12 3.5 for a long time - 2-3 years.
Meanwhile, the "grunts" from my daughter's nose seemed to be getting worse ...
After studying the situation & putting a #4 on my Greg Smith #1 - I came to the conclusion that the problem was real but was not due to injury. Rather, I believed it was due to the pressure caused by the combination of the harder reed being employed.
My daughter wanted a darker sound. However, she was simply pushing (her) physical envelope over the brink. No doubt that the harder reed changed the entire embouchure in compensating for the difficulty in playing the harder reed. The #4's were just too hard - that was a fact. Once we relieved the pressure and got the embouchure back to a normal state - the grunts disappeared. Tough Chops are way over rated. Within 48 hours of going back to a 3.5 V-12, all was well.
My suggestion is --- if you are having Soft Palate problems --- check your "terrain" - your clarinet environment.
Consider a setup that places LESS pressure on the Embouchure & as Robert Dilutis put it ... "quit chasing that (elusive) dark sound & settle for a nice mellow sound.a consistent sound ... ".
(( not that everyone who Grunts is chasing anything - clearly my daughter, a very accomplished player, WAS. ))
best,
mw
ps No grunting with FOF 3.75's !
Post Edited (2003-11-20 02:37)
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2003-11-19 23:55
I am so happy to read this!!! I have also read the article in The Clarinet, and through working with a new teacher this year I have almost completely eliminated my air leak.
Believe it or not, I have found the exact same thing; my 4 1/2's were way too hard and even though they did give me a nice sound and I didn't feel like I was working "that hard", I get just about the same sound with 4's and I don't have to kill my embouchere! Its great! I feel a lot less fatigued, I can practice a lot longer, and i'm not scared to play in front of people in case they hear the leak. My life has gotten so much easier because of this so I hope anyone who is having this issue really looks at their equiptment closely to see if they can relieve the pressure there.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-11-20 01:04
Perhaps you should go to an ENT specialist - I would if I had a similar problem.
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Author: clarinetmajr
Date: 2003-11-20 02:34
Actually John Kelly, I did. It was quite an interesting experience... I had my nasal passages numbed and the doctor looked around w/ some special equiptment. He determined that I had adenoids that had never shrunk. Usually when kids become adults they become smaller naturally and mine never did for reasons unknown. The adenoids were unfortunately not allowing my soft palate to close completely or something, so he recommended having them removed if the situation really bothered me that much. I opted not to do this; i'd want a second opinion before I make a decision of this nature. The reed situation has helped me tremendously though.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-11-20 04:14
I had my adenoids and tonsils removed at age 5- it was all the rage then it seems and since then [about age 40] I had SMR and turbinectomy so I know a little about nasal discomfort but happily it does not affect my playing.
By all means get a second opinion!
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Author: DCTenafly
Date: 2012-04-07 19:30
I'm 15 years old and have been playing since I was 11. I've noticed an air leak forming when I was 14. According to many documents, people with these problems are normally in their early 20s, play daily, have normal speech, have a good tonal concept ( http://www.clarinet.org/clarinetFestArchive.asp?archive=30), normally use a 4 or 4 1/2 Vandoren reed and the air leaks start to appear after 30-45 minutes of practice. I DO have normal speech and I have a decent tonal concept, but I use a 3 Vandoren reed, I don't practice daily, I'm only 15, and my leaks start after even 10 seconds of playing. I can't afford to see a doctor about it but it's getting really noticable since I play in my school orchestra. I'm one of the only two woodwinds in it and I can't stand it anymore. I've tried to stop playing whenever the leak started but it never worked after months of trying it and only deprived me of practice. My teacher says I'm directing my air pressure wrong, but no matter what I do or try to change, air still leaks. I've tried changing my reed back to 2 1/2, heck i even cut back to 2, but my leaks formed at the same time as it did when I used a 3. The biggest reason that I'm concerned about this is that my teacher wants me to play a duet with a piano accompaniment soon and I don't know how to stop the leaks. Do I absolutely have to see a doctor about it or is there another solution? My family can't even afford to give my sick mother a check up and even though they would for me, I feel horrible even thinking about spending the money we should be using for her. If there is another way to stop this problem, please feel free to suggest it to me.
Totochoi14@gmail.com
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Author: JBOverture
Date: 2012-04-07 22:25
@ bryris and @ DCTenafly
I certainly understand how annoying the palatal air leak can be so annoying! I sat my first year university recital exam and 10 minutes in had to almost stop my exam cause I couldn't even make a sound.
Now, of course what I suggest here assumes that the problem is entirely fatigue related; if there is an underlying medical cause then that should be looked at first.
In my experience, the air leak is caused from not using your body and your air properly. This has been outlined to me by my teacher Robert Schubert from Melbourne, Aus. He is a highly qualified Alexander technique teacher and fantastic clarinet player with a excellent anatomical knowledge.
A good inhalation will engage the diaphragm (located at about the 6th rib ie male nipple height) and bring it down, then the chest cavity expands in all directions to bring air into the lungs.
From there the exhalation disengages the diaphragm and the muscles around the ribs controll the rate at which air is released back out of your airways.
Notice that I never have said the word 'push'. In this anatomical case the exhalation feels exactly like a sigh. Take a breath and sigh a few times to feel how natural the release of air is. That is good air. Put that through the clarinet.
The second thing to notice is that this method means much less pressure on the air flap and hence will severely diminish the amount of fatigue that it is exposed to.
This notion has helped me enormously. I have not had a leak for a long time. And when last I did have it, I stopped. Went back to long notes with good breath and built it up again.
I would recommend finding a qualified Alexander technique teacher to have some lessons with. Or better still come to the University of Melbourne!!
Sorry for the long post, but I really hope it helps. No one should have to put up with the problem of air leakage.
Jarrod
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2012-04-08 01:38
This sounds like it could be similar to what happened to me at times when I was in high school (and of course, one of those times was in the middle of a NYSSMA audition; needless to say, that audition went horribly). One of the contributing factors for me was fatigue, however. In those days, the more nervous I got for a performance (whatever it was for), I tried to compensate for that by warming up more and more. Yeah, not my smartest moments.
I've tried re-creating it what I had going on. In order to create what I felt (and the almost total lack of sound that came out of the clarinet), while there was some air leakage out of my nose (which I never noticed until I read this post and paid attention to that part), it felt more like air stoppage. My tongue basically got into the back of my throat and cut off the breath going to my mouth. My nose was the only place it could go. I even tried coughing to make it better because I felt like my throat was obstructed somehow.
In high school I played on a Vandoren B45. I played on orange box Ricos until my junior year (that's what the band director bought). If the NYSSMA debacle happened my sophomore year (my suspicion; I know that year's audition didn't go well at all), I was playing a Rico orange box 3.5 or 4. The band director started experimenting with LaVoz reeds my senior year and I was playing on a Hard (still on the B45). Since I didn't have a clue about matching reed strength to mouthpiece (and apparently the band director didn't either), I bet that's what my problem was. This happened marching in parades a few times, too.
Thank you DCTenafly for resurrecting this thread! It was very insightful.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2012-04-08 02:17
I had a similar problem in college. I'd be playing, and suddenly all my air would go out my nose. One of two things happened: either the problem just went away on its own, or I learned how to use the back of my tongue to focus my airstream so that I didn't have to blow so hard against the resistance of the reed.
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Author: PR
Date: 2012-04-08 05:21
I had this happen to me when I was in high school for a short stent. It would happen, as everyone is saying, after over-exerting myself while playing (in this case, it was a lot of articulation). It has since never happened again. I have, however, had several students with this issue. I have found the same situations present for each student. Their set up was just too resistant which would cause them to use a lot of air, but it would force them to lower their tongues to get more air out. As a result of pushing with a low tongue position, it would cause fatigue in the soft palate. In a matter of minutes, there was a grunt/leak. Another common issue (which is what I experience) was incorrect articulation. Which this makes sense with the lower tongue shape, they are most likely moving their tongues too much and in the wrong direction. I have them slur for a really long time to develop good air/tongue position. Then I work to have them fix their motion of the tongue. I would try slurring for several practice sessions and really focus on the correct tongue shape/good air. I have had great results- so it's possible to overcome!
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