 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: juan_goldberg
Date: 2008-03-05 21:13
Hello to all!
I have started playing quite recently, but I'm really enjoying it and am making some progress. I have borrowed a student instrument froma friend and now I'm thinking to buy one. Since I'm liking it, I want to get an intermediate-level instrument, and I'm considering the Buffet E13 and the Yamaha 650. Price-wise, they are within my budget. And quality-wise, they are beyond my current skills...
I wonder whether you could share with me your thoughts on the clarinets above, or suggest to me any better alternative.
Many thanks for your help!
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-05 21:28
Tom Ridenour's Lyrique 576BC Bb Pro Clarinet. Priced as good or better than the ones you've mentioned, but is a professional quality instrument. I play one, and I love it.
Of the two you've mentioned, the Yamaha 650 is good. I had a student of mine get one a while ago...I liked it better than my own Buffet R13.
Personally, I'd avoid the Buffet E13, or E11. I just don't like the quality of tone or intonation.
My first choice would be the Lyrique, though...
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-05 21:55
Correction to my post above...the Yamaha that a young student of mine bought a few years ago was a 450, not a 650. It was good...more consistent in tuning than my R13 at the time. I have no first-hand knowledge of the 650.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-03-06 01:09
If the Selmer USA Omega may be considered an "intermediate", and is perhaps still available? and within "budget", you might try it, I like mine very well. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2008-03-06 03:29
I had a yamaha 650 in high school and it was very good, a low-end pro or high-end intermediate one. Liked it a lot. Chose it over an R13 they had in that store. Those were the only two I chose from back then. served me well for a few years, then I upgraded to a used R13 set I bought from a teacher.
Lori
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-03-06 07:02
I'm quoting "conventional wisdom" here, not first-hand experience....
The Yamaha instruments have a reputation for being very consistent. Buffet instruments do not. Moreover, it has been suggested that E13s are reject R13s. A good E13 may well be better than the Yamaha 650. A bad one will be worse.
My own advice is to buy neither, but to buy a good plastic instrument (Yamaha 250 or B12). Once your playing has improved, save up for a pro-quality instrument, choosing on the basis of playing it, not other people's recommendations. You can keep the plastic instrument as a spare, and for outdoor gigs - you don't want to be playing a wooden clarinet on a freezing High Street in December.
Bear in mind that clarinets need maintenance. UK techs are used to working on Buffets and Yamahas. Most will have seen very few Lyriques and Selmer(USA)s. Even my Leblanc, which is hardly a rarity, raises eyebrows.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-03-06 07:50
> Bear in mind that clarinets need maintenance. UK techs are used
> to working on Buffets and Yamahas. Most will have seen very few
> Lyriques and Selmer(USA)s. Even my Leblanc, which is hardly a rarity,
> raises eyebrows.
In what way would working on Leblanc or one of the others you mentioned be different from working on Buffet and Yamaha...? It wouldn't.
I tried this model from Yamaha once and it was good. I've tried an E13 too but don't remember too much because it was a long time ago, but I think I liked its sound. Either should be a great clarient unless they have problems. If you go to one of the big stores you can try other models too probably. The best option is to go try both, and bring a good player to try them too.
Other suggestions for example the Lyrique might be good but in that case you want to think whether you want to risk ordering one from abroad, without trying, with all the shipping and tax that might not be refundable if you don't like it, etc.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2008-03-06 08:51
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
Post Edited (2023-11-02 00:16)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-03-06 09:32
Joarkh wrote "However, you can avoid buying a poor one by going to a place where they have a number of them, so that you can test play and determine what specimen you are going for."
You can do this if you have the knowledge and experience to do so. If you are a near-beginner, it is not so easy to make this judgment. You also have to have confidence that the shop will have a selection that includes some good examples of the genre. This may not be the case. The shop may have received a delivery of, let's say, ten E13s. The five best may have been sold. As an inexperienced buyer, you get to choose between the other five. Even if you are able to pick the best of the five, you are not getting a very good instrument.
The other complication is that different players prefer different characteristics in a instrument. Given a set of ten instruments, players might agree which are the three worst, but might well not agree which is the best. If you ask an experienced player to select for you, you are getting the best instrument for him, which may not be the best for you. It may even be the instrument that most closely approximates the faults of his own instrument, which he has grown used to. If you select an instrument unaided, you are getting the best for you at your current state of development, which may not be the best for you in a year's time.
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2008-03-06 11:50
Another vote for the Lyrique. I understand why someone would not choose a Lyrique over an R-13 or Yamaha CSG or Leblanc Cadenza, etc. (although I would). Different strokes and all that. That being said, at it's price point (under $1000), nothing can touch it. And Tom Ridenour will not only set it up before you get it, but will tweak it for you at no charge if there's something about it you don't like.
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-06 12:47
Players at any level should acquire the best instrument they can afford. A better instrument will only make it easier for a student to learn. I don't think you should get a lesser-quality instrument just because you haven't played for very long. If you really love to play and plan on sticking with it, I think you should get the best instrument you can. So, I don't agree with the idea of getting a cheaper plastic horn and upgrading later. The plastic Yamahas and Buffets are good and will not necessarily hamper your progress if you get one, but if you can afford better, why not get better?
Yamaha instruments in general are very consistently made from one to the next. Without knowing what you're doing, you can be reasonably sure that you are getting a quality instrument.
The Buffet E13/E11 is not very consistently made...you'd really be rolling the dice on this one. If you find a good one, it's nice...but since you're a beginner, how will you really know?
Here's another bonus (I think, at least...) of Ridenour's Lyrique: it's made of hard rubber. This means it won't crack; you don't have the headache of worrying about climate extremes like you do with wood. I didn't realize you were in the UK, though, so trying this instrument might be a bit more of a hassle for you since Ridenour only sells his instruments directly. He's very nice, however, and if you have any questions, find his website and contact him. He'd be happy to answer anything about his instruments, I'm sure.
Nobody's mentioned yet that you should get a good mouthpiece. It's the most important part of the instrument. The Clark W. Fobes Debut is an excellent beginner mouthpiece, and very reasonably priced; I'd make something like that part of your wishlist!
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-03-06 14:49
Try before buy. There is little quality control by the makers of clarinets. Snavely and others suggest trying at least 20 unculled, factory fresh instruments at a time, so one can compare them. No two are alike, and some are unacceptable. If inexperienced, have a professional select one for you.
richard smith
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Author: 53engine
Date: 2008-03-06 17:58
Juan,
You didn't leave your email address and I would like you to contact me away from the Board.
[ Post edited - GBK ]
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-03-07 11:48
I would think there are some good used B&H horns available in the UK
Bob Draznik
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Author: juan_goldberg
Date: 2008-03-07 14:14
Thank you very much to you all for your replies and suggestions. They have been most helpful!
I actually didn’t know of Tom Ridenour's clarinets. Following your suggestions, I have looked for information and have found extremely positive reviews of these clarinets. I have now decided to buy one and have got in touch with Tom already.
In addition to the positive reviews that these clarinets have obtained, as well as their reasonable price, I have found that, since I travel frequently between countries with different climates, a wooden clarinet may be at risk of cracking. Then, an extra plus for Ridenour's clarinets!
Thank you very much to all!
Juan
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Author: juan_goldberg
Date: 2008-03-07 14:46
Hi Mike,
I haven't found a retailer in the UK -actually, I don't think there is any. Most likely, I'll order directly. Although nother option is to wait until the summer, since I'll be in the US for a week.
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-07 15:42
Ridenour does not sell his clarinets to distributors/retailers at all...they are only sold directly by him.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-03-07 19:04
Tom will be a featured speaker at the Oklahoma Clarinet Symposium in the first week of June this summer.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: sbrodt54
Date: 2008-03-08 00:53
I'm probably too late to influence your decision but I would like to mention a few things from one more view point. I don't know all of the models or types of clarinets that you can obtain in the UK but I'm sure you can get around a bit and play several, please do not be shy about playing and testing a clarinet.
As I read down through this thread I counted five posts that say Buffet clarinets are inconsistent or mention that many clarinets are inconsistent in manufacturing. In the mid 80s I was stripping new R13s down to the wood, refitting the keys so they moved up and down, repadded them, undercut the other half of the tone holes that were never done at the factory and did a ton of work before I would allow them to be played by anyone. THAT'S inconsistent. Then along came Francois Klok and they put him in charge of quality control, my life changed for the better overnight. The consistency of Buffet clarinets both those made in Germany (E11 E12) and everything coming out of France was improved to the 10th degree. The consistency is now better than what I get from Selmer, LeBlanc and Yamaha and the key work is VERY good.
I have had only one Lyrique clarinet on my bench and the key work on that instrument was pretty poor, that's why it was on my bench in the first place. When I got done with it I played it and found it to be lacking in a colorful, interesting tone and no matter how good the intonation was, the key work was still pretty third rate, rather typical of Chinese manufacturing.
I look at the purchase of any musical instrument as one that should last for many years, maybe even your lifetime so quality is paramount. Norbert mentioned earlier that you might want to select a nice plastic clarinet now and then when you're ready go for a pro horn based on YOUR likes, not someone else's. I agree. You would also have that plastic clarinet for bad weather days and not have to subject your good one to poor conditions.
A typical E11 sells around here for $850 USD (422 pounds I think), LeBlanc has a nice model under $1000 USD and so does Yamaha, there are many choices for you to think about before jumping into any purchase.
Please consider one more thing about inconsistent pro clarinets, they are made of wood (mostly) and that grows out of the ground, of course one piece of wood will not be exactly like another but there are other problems to over come. How long has that R13 been in the store? How was it cared for? Are all of the clarinets you get to play today the same age and cared for in the same way? When wood warps from too dry conditions and the inside bore starts to change, it might never come back to where it was after being hydrated properly. There are many reasons why the same models of the same clarinets can play vastly different so please take your time, gather up opinions, if you can take a pro with you to test clarinets that would be great and play as many as you can.
Good luck!
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Author: juan_goldberg
Date: 2008-03-08 16:15
A question for Ridenour’s clarinet players:
The most cited non-positive issue raised against Ridenour’s clarinets has to do with key work. Any first-hand experience on this?
Many thanks again,
Juan
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-08 17:37
Here is my experience as a player:
I found the keywork on my Buffet R13 to be finished better and perhaps fit a bit tighter. It always had a very solid feel, even after many years. The plating on the Buffet was not good quality. It wore off in many places, and flaked off the tenon rings on the barrel, as well. Overall...good build quality, bad plating. I don't think everyone has experienced plating issues, though, and some of it may have been related to skin acidity.
I haven't had any issues with the Ridenour keywork yet. It is not as pretty to look at as Buffet's, but I haven't had anything break or come out of adjustment, and I've been playing it a lot. The plating seems to be pretty good, but it will take time to see how all of this really holds up. The keys feel good in my hands; there's nothing about the design that inhibits my ability to play. I can't say it will be as durable as the Buffet's was for me, because I haven't had the Lyrique long enough to know for sure. All I can say is that for now, everything seems okay and I can't find a reason to believe it won't be as long as I take appropriately good care of my instrument.
The Lyrique is not Tom's first clarinet. An earlier design of his is called the Arioso. A student of mine bought an Arioso used, so I've had a chance to compare the two. The Arioso doesn't sound as good to me as the Lyrique (different bore design, I believe), and the keywork is definitely not as good. It seems to me that Tom has made efforts to improve the keywork quality, and I've definitely seen the change from the Arioso to the Lyrique.
I would encourage you to contact Tom and ask him any questions you have about his instruments; I've found him very honest and pleasant to work with.
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-03-08 17:41
Leslie Craven, Principal Clarinettist of the Welsh National Opera, wrote an extensive review of his experience with Lyrique clarinets. Here's the link:
http://www.lesliecraven.co.uk/reviews/review_ridenour.html
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2008-03-08 19:26
Juan,
I own a Lyrique in Bb and a Lyrique in A. The keywork is much better than on the Arioso, which I play tested but never owned. While I have not had any problems with the keywork myself, it is not as comfortable to my hands as my Yamaha is. The left hand pinky keys are in a slightly different place than I'm used to. In my opinion, the feel and durability of the keywork is the one element that is still in need of a bit of tweaking in future models. I still love the Lyrique - it's the best in tune and most consistent-throughout-all-registers clarinet I've ever played. I consider it my #1 clarinet, over my Yamaha CS custom and my R-13 and R-13 Prestige clarinets. At its price point, nothing else even comes close. It is the clarinet that I recommend without hesitation to all my high school age students. When they switch from their intermediate Yamaha instruments and E-11's, it's an immediately noticeable improvement - in their overall sound, their ability to play in the upper register, and in their intonation. Great horn, and you get Tom Ridenour to set it up for you (and tweak as desired) for free.
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2008-03-11 14:31
For what it's worth I have a Buffet E-11 and am veryhappy with the tone and key action
Leonard
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Author: gummo
Date: 2009-09-07 13:22
Juan,
I'm new to the bboard - I think it would be good if you provided an update on what you eventually did?
After much research, I'm awaiting delivery of a Lyrique and obviously have a personal interest in whether you bought one and what your findings were....
I'm in the UK too and, in addition to freight, I expect to pay an additional penalty for import duty, etc
Best Rgds,
James
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