 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-16 21:22
Ok,
Im looking for serious advice here from all you fellow players..
I have to admit i first learned how to tongue with my throat but later through my musical career i had learned how to tongue with the actuall ''tongue''. But I did this because well as we all know that those are the ''RULES'' using ur tongue and not the throat for staccato passages and well again tonguing. But i still have to say that i had gone a long way using my throat, i even made my juilliard audition with my throat for reasons as to test if i could go BIG as a musician using my throat.
I mean is it really that illegal using your throat. I have to admit again that my tone projects and sounds incredible with my throat and with tongue i just sound like your average clarinet player. and this is why i ask, we as musicians strive to be original and going with our own flavor or style of playing. Why are we forced to copy techniques used by the majority???
Pb
Post Edited (2007-08-16 21:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: augustgarage
Date: 2007-08-16 23:03
Could you describe how you are using your throat to tongue? When I single tongue, to start the sound, I make a "Tu" sound, when I double tongue I make a sort of "Tu Cu" sound. Are you making like a "Hu" or an "Oh" or what?
How do you double-tongue with your throat (not something I would ask a non-clarinetist)?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-16 23:14
The problem with throat attack is the noise that accompanies it, and the way the note will have a slight delay in it's start as the air pressure is low when starting a note.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-16 23:44
I think the major issue is that you could be working WAY too hard and this may make your ability to sustain long phrases impossible, not to mention making the swift articulations of a Beethoven Four all but impossible.
My original objection was going to be that either the beginnings or ends of notes would not have enough immediacy, but you may have been able to compensate for that. The clear advantage to the tongue is that you have this reservoir of air pressure built up just behind the aperture formed by the reed and tip of the mouthpiece. This gives you the opportunity to articulate and project in the most efficient way.
I have run across an "anchor tonguer" who sounds just great. So perhaps you can get away with stopping your air flow much further back. Just look down the road at what sort of technique you will need to get where you want to be and ask yourself if this technique of yours will allow you the ability for that technical growth.
.........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-08-16 23:46
And later on rapid articulation, as well as various colors/effects with articulation, will be difficult if not impossible.
Did you get into Julliard?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-08-17 01:41
I seem to recall an early treatise on clarinet playing, probably from the 1800's, stating that there are 3 types of articulation: chest, throat, and tongue. I've started trying to double tongue recently, and it's obvious that the tongue is capable of at least two different articulations by itself. It's interesting to experiment with these.
Aequore, I don't think tongue articulation should not cause your sound or projection to worsen, and I can't see that throat articulation should necessarily make them better. As others have noted, throat articulation seems to interrupt the air flow further back - doesn't the mouth cavity depressurize between notes, causing small delays in the attacks? I do believe you train those muscles to work very fast, though, maybe as fast or faster than single tonguing. The necessary muscular motion seems very small.
Paul, what is an "anchor tonguer"?
It's not unusual to start and end phrases with "chest articulation", and modern composers have notation for that effect.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-17 05:04
Quote:
Paul, what is an "anchor tonguer"?
I'm not Paul, but anchor tonguing is when the tip of the tongue is anchored/behind the lower teeth. During articulation, the middle section of the tongue touches the reed (or stops the vibration of the reed in some way) and the tip remains behind the bottom teeth.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-17 05:38
Ok,
first of all, to Morrigan..''Did you get into Julliard?''...
Yes i got in and with wonderful remarks too. And the funny thing is that all those problems you all are stating, I dont have. I have fully mastered the throat and i could even do faster trills with my throat than tongue. Again i first learned my baby steps with my throat instead of tongue. So I have practically better articulation with my throat and yes i could double tongue as well. I have found i have more control with my throat. and no i dont have any air delay, my notes come crips and clean with throat. you can't tell, though i have to admit if you stand near me you could hear my throat and the sound it makes but very faintly. With my tongue i have tried anchoring as well but this all sounds to sloppy or airy. and the sound i make is like a ''hu'' with throat and ''Tu'' with tongue. I like the hu and it sounds better!
but again if i dont have non of those problems being stated...is it so wrong using throat??..oh and i have played the Beethoven Four with no problem. its actually one of my favorite pieces. Both with throat and tongue..
Post Edited (2007-08-17 05:42)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2007-08-17 05:56
The teacher (using the term losely) that allowed you to get by with this should have their certificate pulled. That said. The limitations you face are astronomical. Stop what you are doing. Locate a qualified Clarinet teacher in your area and start lessions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-08-17 06:07
So you posted seeking advice, then say that what you're doing is perfectly fine and you can play an array of difficult excerpts perfectly and that you "...have fully mastered the throat".
Are you REALLY the most qualified person to make a judgement as to whether this method is working for you? Can you objectively hear that you are making clean, clear, nice, acceptable articulations? Have you ever reached an advanced level by using your tongue? How do you know the throat method is better? And why oh why did you post here in the first place: to ask a question and take on advice (despite the fact that nobody here has heard you yet) or to boast?
Post Edited (2007-08-17 06:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-17 11:04
Aequore wrote:
> Ok,
>
> first of all, to Morrigan..''Did you get into Julliard?''...
> Yes i got in and with wonderful remarks too.
If you're satisfied with what you're doing and your teachers are satisfied with what you're doing - and both of you can hear the result - , then why are you wasting your time with us? We can't hear you, so we're no judge.
And we shouldn't be judging Aequore's articulation without hearing it. He/she seems to be perfectly satisfied and has made it into Juilliard, something many of us using our tongue couldn't.
Or not. This could be a troll for all I care.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-08-17 11:39
I use my left foot for braking and my right foot exclusively for the accelerator pedal. I usually get similar arguments as the Poster is getting to the effect that "That's not the right way." despite the fact that my way "works".
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 12:25
What foot do you use on the clutch?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-08-17 13:40
Albanian folk clarinetists use their throat for articulation, and they sound fine to me. Personally, I can NOT do it! I try, but it sounds horrible!!!
The goal should be to make the music sound "correct" (whatever that might mean to you). How you are accomplishing this goal is secondary.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 15:16
The problem with throat articulation is more evident in the upper register - play repeated G (G-G-G-G-) either legato or slightly detached and you'll hear a slight coughing sound with the start of each note, and people near you will also hear it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-17 16:44
[not being judgemental] I would really like to hear a clip of your playing.
I know a bit what you are going through. I am an anchor tonguer. But several years ago I was told to learn 'real' articulation. I always got by with anchor tonging. 'Real' tonging was always hard, but I decided to learn it and think of it as another technique that can't hurt to know. I now use regular tonging, but every 6 months I spend a few minutes anchor tonguing- I never lost it. It is better than it used to be, actually.
If you can truly do everything with throat articulation, than you have no problems, but I suspect that there will come a day [read-piece] that you cannot do with the throat.
Don't try to 'dispose' of your throat articulation, but you should 'include' regular articulation in your pallate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-08-17 20:16
The what? :-)
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-17 21:42
Or epiglottis.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-08-18 00:28
I agree on being non-judgemental. I can imagine working those muscles very efficiently with training. However, when Aequore says he can *trill* as fast with his throat as he does with his tongue, he's speaking a language I don't even know.
And what's that about double tounguing? How do you double-tongue with the throat, Aequore?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-08-18 00:43
I think its a "What ever floats your boat."
I mean, the OP says he does know how to Double Tongue, he CAN play beethoven the 4th Tonguing and using the Throat.... and in all cases, he prefers to use his throat and it seems like its working really Well AND better than this toungue.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-08-18 14:27
"What foot do you use on the clutch?"
Neither. I use my arms. :{}
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-08-19 00:31
Aequore, who made those those "wonderful remarks" at Juilliard. Where they articulation-specific? Since you mention auditioning there, I assume you are college aged or not far removed from it, which means that these remarks probably came from the likes of Alan Kay or Jon Manasse or Ricardo Morales? Why am I highly skeptical that any of those respected figures would adovcate throat-tonguing? And yes, please do explain to us your trill-tongue and your double-tongue techniques with your throat. Did you accept your place at Juilliard, and if not, which school did you finally end up?
Post Edited (2007-08-19 00:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-19 06:32
I have to say, thanks to all of you who support or how i have read, are non
judgemental. I might of come wrong in this advice i was seeking. Yes i have the capability of using throat and to my opinion i have mastered throat as good as tongue. To this current stage of my life im using tongue, but i do use my throat at times when i double tongue which is ''tu-hu'' for those seeking how do i do it. hope that helped?
And its true, i plan not to forget my throat technique..i think it might
come handy one day
and for ''MORRIGAN''.... ''And why oh why did you post here in the first place: to ask a question and take on advice (despite the fact that nobody here has heard you yet) or to boast?''
I really dont appreciate the rude comments you have posted. why are you so bitter?? I im not BOASTING..and certanly not by saying where i attend school, either.. yes i have heard my recordings and i do sound ''CLEAN'' ''PERFECT''...many have heard it too. No one knows the difference. untill i say ''HEY DID YOU KNOW I DID IT WITH MY.......
and i repeat i created this post to seek an opinion and advice. Not directions
To ''Kevin''
Yes i im currently atteding Juilliard, When i auditioned i only played several passages with throat and i mixed it with the tongue technique. Im not saying i had 100% positive remarks, if that was what you understood i apologize, like any other player i did get some criticims but overal it was good and im here at the school oh by the Mr. Morales and Mr.Manasse were the first ones i played for.
Post Edited (2007-08-19 06:36)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-19 07:06
I have been trying this throat thing for a few days and I can't seem to imagine how you can do quick things with it. I use a breath attack for the first note of some soft things, but for Midsummer Night's Dream?
And your double tonguing using 'tu hu'? do you mean 'tu ku'?
BTW, congrats on Juilliard!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-19 08:39
"Yes thats what i meant, ''tu ku'' "
Do you mean a tu-ku as in flute double tonguing, i.e. without using the upper tip of the tongue against the under-tip of the reed but rather using the upper-tip of the tongue against the roof of the mouth?
By throat tonguing, I though you meant 'epiglottal stopping', as in laughing. Now you say it is a 'ku', which I assume to be the back of the tongue against the back of the hard palate (as in flute double tonguing), which is quite different from epiglottal stopping.
Perhaps you could explain a little more definitively, exactly what you mean by "tu", "ku", and throat tonguing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-19 09:29
In my education 'tu' always uses the reed. It is just a nomenclatural label. Maybe in NZ you call it 'du' or 'tee' or 'dee'??
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-08-19 11:01
"Yes i im currently atteding Juilliard, When i auditioned i only played several passages with throat and i mixed it with the tongue technique. Im not saying i had 100% positive remarks, if that was what you understood i apologize, like any other player i did get some criticims but overal it was good and im here at the school oh by the Mr. Morales and Mr.Manasse were the first ones i played for."
Okay, fair enough. I was under the impression that you played your audition while relying on your throat, and that the comments were actually directed at the throat itself. But all's well and understood.
Post Edited (2007-08-19 11:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OmarHo
Date: 2007-08-19 19:31
Like Gordon, I'm also a bit confused by what you mean by using "Tu ku" with the throat.
Aequore said:
"I have to admit i find it amusing when others do tell me how hard
it is using the throat??"
That's kind of like how single lippers always say "but double lippers can't stand up when they play". I've been double lipping ever since I've started playing the clarinet and have never stopped. I started clarinet playing double lip because before I got a teacher, I thought that was the only way to play and you weren't supposed to put your teeth on the mouthpiece :P. But since I've gotten so used to it, it's pretty strong enough for me to comfortably stand up and play. However, I have pretty big lips so there's enough "lip" for me to fold over my teeth. And if I had very thin lips, I probably would have suffered (if anybody out there plays double lip with thin lips, let me know).
So to sum it up, maybe you just have to have the natural ability and time to get used to something like this throat technique.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-20 00:36
"So to sum it up, maybe you just have to have the natural ability and time to get used to something like this throat technique."
No matter how you look at it, you have that large pressure vessel (in the form of the mouth cavity) between the mechanism used for articulating (i.e. the throat) and the mechanism used for making the sound (reed). This has to alter the sound 'effects' between the tongued notes.
It is a less extreme version of articulating by panting like a dog (but without the inhale), which would be very sloppy and undefined indeed.
This approach may advantage certain legato styles, but I cannot see how it could be anything but detrimental to styles requiring precise attack.
The pneumatics involved simply make that impossible, in the same way as the 'K' on a flute can never be as defined as the 'T'.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-20 03:43
what i don't understand is this...
this person claims to be at Julliard, with access to the best music teachers in the US, if not the world.
so why ask such a question on an internet bulletin board? Go ask your teacher, most obviously the best person to judge. This is, i suspect, all just a load of hogwash posted in order to stir people up and waste their time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-20 04:57
Donald,...''This is, i suspect, all just a load of hogwash posted in order to stir people up and waste their time.''
No its not a load of Hogwash, you have a point of me asking the ''BEST'' teachers in the world here at my school. But i decided not for reasons as to
that point exact. They are so highly seen and esteemed by others that through time their character grows hard,strict, and very judgemental. This is no offense to any of my professors, I give them my full respect and admiration. But what you dont understand is that here in Juilliard theres no room for ''ERRORS'' or controversial thoughts of a student. Our goal here at the school is to; learn,and apply and turn that into a masterpiece. Theres lots of pressure involved, to lengths that you could not imagine.Theres always the thought of someone else taking your spot, and here theres lots of chances that might happen. So since ive been always curious of what others thought of this technique. I decided to discuss this among players who have open views and who think that there could be room for mistakes.
Post Edited (2007-08-20 04:59)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-08-20 05:02
Who is your teacher at Juilliard? Have you not brought up the issue to your professor? If you are currently attending Juilliard, you must have been there at least two semesters (as it is currently August). Are you an undergraduate or a graduate student? This seems to be a weird issue to be having at this point in a player's development and education.
And what do you expect to gain from posting this query? You write repeatedly that you are looking for advice and opinion. Not directions. Advice on what? You say that you've already "mastered" the throat, and that your tongue is on a same level. You also ask if "it really that illegal using your throat" as well as why we are forced to "copy techniques used by the majority." Well, this thread has been filled with people commenting on why they think throat-tonguing is an inferior technique (if you may call it that). Isn't that what you asked for?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-20 05:16
Yes Kevin,
Im an undergrad, and yes i have gotten the opinions of many and im satisfied, i also thank them for their thoughts and time. All im doing now is anwering question that im being asked. Im able to do this right?...
''Have you not brought up the issue to your professor?''
did you read the thread above you??..maybe you should take a look at it,
and its not an issue Kevin,...if it would be i would certainly let you know..
Post Edited (2007-08-20 05:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2007-08-20 05:52
I went through the throat-tongue thing too, and also helped someone switch when I figured out she was doing it too. Although it feels awkward for a long time (you are starting over learning tonguing essentially), I can say that this person immediately (within minutes) sounded an order of magnitude better.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-20 06:46
I have heard of the 'competitions' at Juilliard, both students and faculty, in many departments and I can imagine it's very rough with your technique. I have had similar problems during my education and what I learned is to not make a big deal of anything. Don't ask loaded questions to anyone. 'Is it okay if I ...?' is not as good as 'I am having trouble with X, could you show me how you do it?'
I didn't go to Juilliard but when I said I wanted to do something a certain way my teacher said, 'Well, you are MY student and you may not do it that way!' Many schools and teachers have that sort of approach to education.
Post Edited (2007-08-22 09:38)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-20 07:13
Skygardener,
thats true, ...i guess im afraid of being the odd one who asked such question..i mean, you could even see it in this post. many even question my experience in music because of the post i made of using ''throat''.. i quote....''This seems to be a weird issue to be having at this point in a player's development and education.''
this is from one of the threads above.. i guess i would freak if my music director would tell me that..
Post Edited (2007-08-20 07:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-20 07:19
> ''This seems to be a weird issue to be having at this point in a player's
> development and education.''
I wonder how many of the "eternal" players - from Brandwein via Goodman to Shaw - would be slapped and chastised today for certain quirks in their technique, playing or setup...
If we were after uniformity, we should indeed proceed to synths and samplers.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTS
Date: 2007-08-20 07:33
Aequore, I was at juilliard for my undergrad (student of Morales) not too long ago and would agree that in general, question of "should I do x or y" or "is it ok if I do z even though it is not standard" and other such basic issues should be addressed to your primary teacher. If, as you say your method produces "perfect" results and no one can tell the difference (presumably including your teacher) then there shouldn't be a problem. If your technique accomplishes the desired range of articulations then what's the problem. I have some idea of what the faculty are like and would be seriously surprised if they demanded you change something that was producing perfect results. That being said, I don't see the harm in trying to work up a solid "standard" technique of tonguing. If it isn't working, discuss the matter frankly and honestly with your teacher at that point.
JTS
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-20 08:32
To my knowledge Mr Morales would be quite open to unconventional technique IF it "worked".
I believe that he himself used "anchor tonguing" quite sucessfully for some time through his career (he may still do so), so imagine his advice on this (throat tonguing) would be non dogmatic- and his opinion would be based on actually hearing you play rather than reading about it. I can't comment on the other teachers at Julliard.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2007-08-20 11:09
Sounds to me like you've got the hard part of double tonguing mastered already! I've got a pretty good double tongue, thanks to years of practice, but still it breaks down on me, and it's always the "ka" stroke that gives out!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-20 11:24
Aequore wrote:
> They are so highly seen and esteemed by
> others that through time their character grows hard,strict, and
> very judgemental. This is no offense to any of my professors, I
> give them my full respect and admiration. But what you dont
> understand is that here in Juilliard theres no room for
> ''ERRORS'' or controversial thoughts of a student.
Interesting. You can be sure your professors are now aware of or will be very shortly your technique.
Many people read the Bboard, even if they don't post.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-20 12:44
It almost sounds as if you don't want the answer to the question.
Many years ago I found that I was anchor tonguing. I was told by my teacher that it would be better for my technique to learn traditional tonguing. It took me a long hard summer to master it well, but it helped my playing tremendously.
I would think that there is a reason why the standard techniques have developed as they have. Why not try to make it work for you? Learn to do it the standard way equally well and use your techniques to add to your bag of tricks.
There is a reason it is called tonguing and not throating ;-)
Post Edited (2007-08-21 11:30)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-08-20 12:51
Aequore, the internet is a lot smaller than you think. But not as small as the music world. You don't have to be a student at Juilliard to personally be acquainted with the big shots - even I myself am an acquaintance of Ricardo. Now be assured I won't go to him and spill all the secrets, but other people will. I can also dial up any number of people and ask for information on this sophomore clarinetist at Juilliard named Peter, and I'll probably have your entire musical biography in 15 minutes, but I'm nicer than that.
I do admit I'm quite impressed and how well you've handled being split in two sides and having to basically re-learn tonguing from scratch. I also won't believe that any professor at a top conservatory would react negatively to you telling them about the technique you've had as long as you've played clarinet. These guys hold a high level of professionalism, not just in their playing, but in their demeanor as well (usually, but MANY exceptions).
Post Edited (2007-08-20 17:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2007-08-20 17:01
It seems your only problem is "legality" rather than any doubt about the technique itself, so I suggest you have the courage of your convictions and do a complete recital (or master class or whatever) using throat articulation (chosing sufficiently challenging material), and see if anyone notices, or even ask them to critique the articulation particularly. If everyone likes it, then you are OK.
That is, unless constant use of it several hours a day proves physically injurious, but I would not know about that.
By the way, have you tried the solo in the scherzo of Beethoven 7; i.e. the four A notes in the upper clarion register marked pp and entirely solo? I would suggest that as a better test than something very rapid and fairly loud.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-20 22:47
Quote:
No its not a load of Hogwash, you have a point of me asking the ''BEST'' teachers in the world here at my school. But i decided not for reasons as to that point exact. They are so highly seen and esteemed by others that through time their character grows hard,strict, and very judgemental.
I don't understand the point of this thread.
If your articulation technique as it stands is so "flawless", and it appears that your teacher has no clue that you are not articulating in the standard fashion, then why care what people think? What is legal and illegal? It's about the music. If your technique is not hampering your performance and will not prevent you from growing further as a musician, then that technique works for you.
If your view of the teachers at Juilliard is that they are too judgemental and close minded to be open to different techniques that appear to be working for a certain student - then there is something wrong with either them or you. The fact that you haven't even discussed this with your private teacher shows that you cannot claim they will demand this or that. What kind of student teacher relationship is that anyway? Isn't that what they are there for and isn't that why you chose to study at that school with that instructor? If you don't like what your teacher has to say, then perhaps you are closeminded or this teacher isn't right for you.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-08-21 02:03
Lately I've begun working on double-tonguing, and have been surfing for info on articulation and giving the topic thought. Aequore's thoat articulation is interesting, and there seem to be oblique references to it elsewhere.
I briefly tried it out over a couple sessions. My coordination was poor, but I was able to experiment. The muscular action seems very small and capable of development - it's already used in speech and other ways. The articulation point can range over what feels like an inch or so of throat. I was surprised when selecting a point high in the throat that there didn't seem to be a terrible drop in pressure above there for brief articulations. Some, but it didn't prevent reliable sound production in most scenarios I tried. Not sure why, though the size of the oral cavity involved seems on reflection to be significantly smaller than I'd assumed. I.e., the cheeks are not puffed, the tongue is somewhat arched, the mouthpiece is in there, etc.
But, as Gordon pointed out, there should be some pressure drop no matter how small that cavity actually is.
Anyway, using this type of release, I was able to begin slow individual notes clearly in all registers. I had some trouble starting altissimo notes softly, but I don't feel quite so reliable with that normally either, so maybe with practice that would get better.
However, I don't see any way to produce two different articulations with the throat for double tonguing, analogous to the "tu" and "ku" with the tongue. All I can do is an edged vowel sound, sort of like the way a cough starts. Rereading what was said, I think Aequore meant that he can combine tongue and throat articulations. It isn't quite clear . . .
I'm going to continue with tongue articulating, but this idea will remain in mind. Especially since I'll never need to worry about Julliard
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-08-21 05:53
"Author: Ed (---.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net - ISP in)
Date: 2007-08-20 12:44
It almost sounds as if you don't want the answer to the question.
Many years ago I found that I was anchor tonguing. I was told by my teacher that it would be better for my technique to learn traditional tonguing. It took me a long hard summer to master it well, but it helped my playing tremendously.
I would think that there is a reason why the standard techniques have developed as they have. Why not try to make it work for you? Learn to do it the standard way and use your techniques to add to your bag of tricks.
There is a reason it is called tonguing and not throating ;-)"
I think the OP said he can tongue "normally" quite well
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-22 01:38
Aequore, you never answered my question, and I am still burning with curiosity, particularly where you actually do this 'tonguing':
You wrote "Yes thats what i meant, ''tu ku'' "
I wrote
"Do you mean a tu-ku as in flute double tonguing, i.e. without using the upper tip of the tongue against the under-tip of the reed but rather using the upper-tip of the tongue against the roof of the mouth?
By throat tonguing, I though you meant 'epiglottal stopping', as in laughing. Now you say it is a 'ku', which I assume to be the back of the tongue against the back of the hard palate (as in flute double tonguing), which is quite different from epiglottal stopping.
Perhaps you could explain a little more definitively, exactly what you mean by "tu", "ku", and throat tonguing."
Post Edited (2007-08-22 01:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-22 02:08
Seems to me that on the heels of Kevin's post, Elvis has left the building. In a manner of speaking...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-23 07:00
Aequore,
You didn't respond to the thread after Kevin posted for several days, so I thought maybe you got scared off... Anyway, as the saying goes, "Elvis has left the building!", so yes, it was meant to be a funny comment.
I'd like to offer you a bit of advice, FWIW... I think one of the reasons you caught so much attention was your use of superlatives in describing your technique. Maybe your technique really is as good as you say; and if so, you'd have reason to be proud. But there are very few musicians who can truly claim to have "mastered" their craft. And you're still in school, so obviously you're there to learn; and as such, to say that you've "mastered" your tonguing/throat technique comes across as... well... not exactly modest. Even if you have an enviable technical foundation, you can still look forward to a lifetime of development of your technique and artistry. If you're a true artist, the quest for bettering one's art never stops.
There are indeed those performers who have earned the mantle of "master", i.e., world-class performers who teach master classes and who can afford to say "I've mastered _____". They've earned the right to say so backed up by a legacy of fine musicianship borne out in performances.
So, to the advice part: while you're still in school, try to be a little more humble. Let your playing attest to your technique.
Best of Luck in your Studies,
Ski
Post Edited (2007-08-23 07:03)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-23 13:19
"To GORDON,..by tu-ku i mean by using normal tonguing and then throat to produce the ku to double tongue...is that the answer your looking for??..soorryy dont know what else to say??"
Perhaps I could repeat, with a little elaboration
tu:
Do you mean
a) "normal" tonguing against the reed, or
b) "normal" (for many instrumets) tonguing against the roof of your mouth?
ku:
Do you mean
c) tonguing with the back of the tongue against the top of the very back of your mouth (i.e. the top of your throat), or
d) Not using your tongue at all, but using your epiglotis to block and unblock your throat, as we do when we laugh. See http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19595.jpg
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-08-23 14:15
:) I really didn't mean to create any discomfort. I was just suggesting that the music world here in America is small enough, that we're probably all know each other some way or the other.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-23 15:54
Very true about the music world being small. A singer I met once in Hawaii in 1999 became the roommate of my classmate in NY in 2005.
Very small world.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-08-23 16:01
Ski: "There are indeed those performers who have earned the mantle of "master", i.e., world-class performers who teach master classes and who can afford to say "I've mastered _____". They've earned the right to say so backed up by a legacy of fine musicianship borne out in performances."
I've heard extremely few such people - in any field - themselves lay claim to mastery. The more territory you claim, the wider stretch the vistas beyond.
Claims of perfection like that made a couple posts above undercut all other statements. So do vague answers. I'll second Gordon's questions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-23 23:58
To Ski,
I agree with what you said above, I guess I picked the wrong words to describe my ''throat'' ability what i meant by mastered is i have mastered it within my level of expertise..not at any real ''MASTER MUSICIAN'' level. and i hope i didnt seem like i was really boasting with all this. My intentions were nothing but 100% humble
To Gordon,
''tu''
answer:a
''ku''
answer: D
and true about the music world being small,!! very very true.!
maybe ill see all of you clarinetist one day ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
of by the way i took the quiz to see if you are a true ''clarinetist''
by the percentile..i got 100% french horn and 33% clarinet!!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-24 05:54
"what i meant by mastered is i have mastered it within my level of expertise"
Sorry to pick on you. but that is not really what is means to "master" something. If it were the definition, then we would all be "masters" within our levels of expertise. ie. "I always perform at 100% of my ability" No matter how good or bad it is, we always do perform at 100% our ability, but this person and that person have different abilities.
It does seem a bit strange for any undergraduate student (of any school) to claim to "master" something.
Like I said before, try the Midsummer Night's Dream. If you can play THAT (or something like it) with your technique THEN you might be able to say that you have "mastered" it.
Post Edited (2007-08-24 05:57)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-08-25 21:29
To Skygardener,
I have been practicing the Midsummer Night's Dream. Just for you actually... and it did take me a while but i could handle it with my throat. I do have to admit i could only play the piece only once or twice. after that my throat gives out or you might say ''dies out''..and this is honestly speaking..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
