 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-20 16:49
Hi everyone,
I'm looking to buy a new bass clarinet (British Air 'lost' mine forever), but I find that the new Boehm models are getting bigger and bigger in sound and really heavy (ok, make that "very, very solid") in corpus and keywork... I'd been playing a 1992 Buffet prestige (low C), but the new ones I've tried are really hard to blend with an accordion, or even my clarinet quartet - mellow, big velvety clouds, very impressive, nice fat for Jazz, nice dark for Mahler, and they all PLAY great... not much outline though to my taste, little leanness in piano regions. No chance to blend this with a violin or guitar without chosing a really bright mp/reed setup... Anyone feel the same? Are the Leblancs and Yamahas going into the same direction now? Are German horns the only option?
Any ideas?
(This is *not* a mouthpiece issue btw! Thanks!)
Thanks in advance!
Christian
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-20 16:59
Sorry to hear your bass got 'lost' - I hope they compensated you, though replacing a cherished instrument is never easy.
Having only owned two more recently made basses - a D-series Selmer and now a Buffet Prestige (and layed a few Leblanc low C basses as well), I haven't had much experience playing older basses for any great deal of time, though a lot of people love the older Selmers.
However, I did see a reform Boehm bass on Vioworld! Maybe that'd be ideal for you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-20 17:42
> did see a reform Boehm bass on Vioworld!
Thanks, Chris, I saw that one, too.
It's a Uebel from the 70s. I once owned a German Uebel bass from the 70s - nice instruments, but a bit too much the opposite of what I've been experiencing with the new Boehms.
Reformboehm seems an option - though I'm already playing both systems and would do ok with a German instrument, no reforms needed.
Thank you anyway!
Christian
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2007-01-20 17:59
Christian... it seems you are looking for a German bass.
When I bought my bass I tested a H. Wurlitzer ( and I l o v e d its sound)
I tested a new Uebel which sounded quite good but I did not find the mechanism very robust. Since I could not afford a Wurlitzer (or Dietz or Leitner & Kraus), I bought a Buffet 1193-2. It has a "sweeter" sound than Leblanc or Selmer and the mechanics works very reliable. To change the sound a little bit towards German sound I chose a Pomarico 2 mp and use vandoren Bluebox Tenorsax-reeds (3,5). This Setup satisfies me for small ensembles/chamber music.
(I heard that Foag introduces a very good German Bass clarinet model... perhaps is it a litle bit cheaper...)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-01-20 21:19
What do the German volk do for student level bass clarinets? I've seen plenty of "beginner" German style clarinets, but never the equivalent of a Vito or Noblet bass clarinet with the Oehler keywork system.
Inquiring minds want to know...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-20 22:13
I think there are intermediate German system basses to low Eb (I've seen them listed on some of the various makers' sites), or chances are the students rent a low C bass from their school or college.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-01-21 01:20
Selmer and Buffet basses from the 1960s and 70s had the leaner sound you're looking for. The Selmers also had a particularly slim feel in the hands. Current models, particularly the new Selmers, feel huge.
The sound of my 1967 Buffet (to low Eb) has less width, more sweetness and more center than the current model. On the other hand, it has mechanical problems that the current Buffets and Selmers do not -- the register key mechanism in particular is difficult to keep in adjustment. I put up with that because I prefer the sound. Also, I don't play a lot of bass and don't want to spend the money on a low C instrument.
If you can afford one, I think the instrument to get is from Steve Fox http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Bass_Clar.html. It has a small German bore, and Steve describes the sound as more compact than other basses.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-21 09:57
Thanks so far, everybody, that's been helpful already.
From what I've seen and heard, I have great trust in Stephen Fox's work, but I cannot afford to buy a new, handmade pro instrument. If insurances (let alone airlines) would compensate you to buy back what you had, that'd be different, but heck, they don't.
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-27 23:14
Well, I guess I was lucky.
I found a Selmer from probably 1978, serial number Z 7023.
It's a wonderful instrument! Very flexible, astounding dynamic range, very noble sound. Responds extremely well. Very free, very focussed.
As much respect as I have for any instrument maker, it makes me have less admiration for the problems our market-leaders recently 'solved', because this instrument, for one, simply doesn't have most of them in the first place. (For example, second register left hand just plays as a soprano clarinet, no fighting back, great control, very free, also no 'hisses' with register changes.)
It has some keywork issues I'll probably hate once I grow out of the falling-in-love-state, but I will always love it for featuring keys designed for a human, not an elephant, and not breaking my neck when I play it standing.
And playing better Bachs and better Hip-Hop remixes than the Buffet 1193s I tested it against.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-01-28 05:24
Hello Christian
In my opinion it is mostly impossible to really understand how the new Buffet bass clarinets play (or can play). Something is making them more resistant, especially in the clarion area (E and up to around A#/B/C). I'm not trying to convince you to get a Buffet instead or anything like that, but in case you might be interested to understand maybe why you thought the new Buffet is resistant, read this entire thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=843&t=839
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-28 08:54
Yeah, thanks - I had read that thread, very interesting!
The Selmer I'm playing now was actually chosen by Harry Sparnaay for one of his students (wow, a chosen clarinet! perfect for my klezmer gigs!).
Resistance in itself is nothing I dislike - I just feel that many of the new instruments are loud without being muscular - little core in the tone, and a tendency towards cloudiness.
I guess that's all the market. The American market is probably very important for the French instrument makers, so everything is developing towards American classical tone culture (nothing I dislike! beautiful sounds - I just find them too undefined for the stuff I'm doing).
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-01-28 14:18
Guess I'm going through a similar sort of thing. Had a wonderful Selmer 33 bass that I bought in 1986, the pick of 6 different ones at the time. It's sound is BIG but not really penetrating. It played well (blended) with others quite nicely. Numerous fellow clarinetists/ conductors have said "your sound on bass is really pretty."
Right now I've got a new Buffet Prestige bass to low C. Mechanically it is much better than the Selmer. The sound is not as big, although the intonation is superb. It does have lots more resistance, especially in going over the break than the Selmer does too. I find I have to adjiust wind pressure more on the Buffet than the Selmer. Playing the altissimo notes is about equal in difficulty.
The Selmer bass plays/ feels more like a sax than a clarinet in many ways whereas the Buffet feels like a BIG clarinet. Guess it reflects the instrument building philosophies and expertises of the two companies as well. Selmer saxes are still kings of the mountain and of course this board is dominated by Buffet-aholics. Maybe not surprisinging the instruments are so different too.
I don't think you could go wrong with either horn, but be aware there are differences.
Eefer guy
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-28 15:05
As a British Air user who travels with instruments all the time, I extend my deepest sympathies for your loss. I cringe when forced to put my guitar "underneath" in the cargo hold. I always hand carry it (Escort) to the plane and beg them to put it in the pilot's closet. If there is no room up top, they'll usually hand carry it under and give it to me as I deplane. My main instrument is soprano clarinet, so I can carry those on and put them under my seat. I hope you had insurance.
But all that to get to your question. Have you looked into Tom Ridenour's Lyrique clarinet? I haven't tried one, but there has been some discussion on the board about his products lately. Might be a good choice.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/basspage.html
Post Edited (2007-01-28 15:08)
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-28 19:41
I've been travelling with my bass in a Wiseman case for many years, and carry-on has never been a problem - until this summer, when the British government decided that instruments were a security risk. Laptops were not.
Unfortunately, my bass clarinet wouldn't fit in a laptop case.
Maybe that's why I've been looking for smaller instruments.
But I'm happy now. I just played the Selmer in concert for the first time, and it played some very unusual solos for me. Pretty inspiring!
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2007-01-28 19:51
Christian Dawid wrote:
> The Selmer I'm playing now was actually chosen by Harry
> Sparnaay for one of his students (wow, a chosen clarinet!
> perfect for my klezmer gigs!).
Does this mean that you can play "Chosen" Kale Mazel Tov on it?
(Sorry, I can't resist awful puns. My bad...)
Steve Epstein
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-01-29 05:24
Hello Christian
I have to say thank you for this thread.
After this thread I decided to give the different tubes another try. As I think I wrote in the other thread, the really big ones made altisimo a bit harder (I've been using the 3.5mm one for a long time now, the original is 3mm). I've tried the 4.5mm hole and it worked great! Altisimo was so slightly harder, but much easier than I remembered with this size hole! It wasn't much of a problem at all. The clarion (E & up) was improved even more. This is the same size register hole as Selmer 37 bass clarients as far as I know.
When you said the new Buffet was more resistant, was it especially in the clarion register (E and up), or was the entire instrument more resistant, and had the same resistance throughout the range? I feel that maybe the Buffet is slightly more resistant throughtout the range, but a lot more in the clarion register, which the bigger tube fixed.
If you can do me a favor, and please check a few things on your Selmer Series 9. The hole diameter of the register tube on the neck (if possible, to the closest 0.5mm), the distance from neck to end of the register tube, and also if you can try to feel what distance the register tube is sticking into the neck (by feeling with a finger and estimating, or a small mirror inside the neck - I used a small break of a CD for this and it works). Also, if you can measure the distance from the beginning of the neck to the register tube (as if there was an imaganary line going in the middle of the bore), and also the distance from the neck register tube to the body register tube, to the A tone hole, and to the first finger tone hole. Any or all of this information will help.
By the way, I saw your website and that you play klezmer and you are from Germany. Actually this week we have a masterclass and a concert with a klezmer clarinet player from Germany, Helmut Eisel, playing with some of the (classical and jazz) students from the local university. Do you know him?
Thanks,
Nitai
Post Edited (2007-01-29 05:53)
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Author: Christian Dawid
Date: 2007-01-29 18:42
Hi Nitai,
it will take some time, but I will try to measure the stuff when things are more relaxed here. Actually, they never are, but I'll try anyway.
I never had a chance to hang with Helmut Eisel, but he's a fine musician and gives interesting workshops on improvisation. He worked together with Giora Feidman in the past. (I'm not part of the German Feidman movement, that's why our paths didn't cross, I guess, but reportedly he's a really nice guy).
I've been in touch with Mousa Berlin a while ago, and I've been working regularly with musicologist Zev Feldman from Hebrew University - that's all my klezmerishe kontaktn for Israel...
Christian
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