 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: music-grl
Date: 2002-04-26 03:14
Hi everyone. Does someone know where I can get a hold of those easy "stick-on" pads for a regular Bb clarinet? Do they hold up pretty well? I recently bought a metal clarinet and I'm trying to restore it somewhat. It actually plays, but it has several leaks and I also need to shine it up.
Thanks!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-26 14:50
Gordon - what does "yuck" mean? If she means Valentino, then she's looking at a very well-respected pad, even if perhaps you don't like them.
I don't know where to get individual Valentino pads, though.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2002-04-26 15:49
IMO very well-respected are Valentino Green Back pads, but they are not the same as "stick on yuck" Valentino pads.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-04-26 15:49
Valentino pads are distributed by Rico- www.ricoreeds.com You can also find them in many of the good catalogues. Hope that helps.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2002-04-26 16:36
I use Valentino reg's, 9.5 mm pads, often on the higher [more water-exposed] UJ pads on Bb's and similarly on the neck-register keys on basses and saxes, where a bit of elasticity for sealing-compensation, beyond what a cork pad will give, is needed. Works for me, and lasts ?forever? . Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-26 21:50
Fair enough, Mark. I say yuck to ALL the self-adhesive pads that I have seen, which does not include the 'green-backs'. So my jury is still out on them.
Some questions off the top of my head:
1. On a domed pad cup presumably the back of the pad is held only around the edges, with a pocket of air behind the main body of the pad. What effects does this have on the security of the pad, e.g. with only a thin 'ring' of glue holding it, is it permitted to tilt in the key cup. (It is rare to encounter a self adhesive backing that does not 'creep' somewhat when there is a very small area of adhesive, take for example the self-adhesive synthetic key corks - also Valentino? - that creep off the keys) Any tilting of the larger pads will almost certainly result in leaks at the 'front' of the pad.
2. When left for a number of years, almost all adhesive-backing type adhesives either become powdery, with no remaining adhesive property, or slide about.
3. As with cork pads, all self-adhesive pads that I have seen are limited to the INSIDE diameter of the key cup. On many instruments the alignment of the key cup is so poor - e.g. key cup arm is too short - that use of such pads puts the seating line precariously close to the edge of the pad. If the seating is near the edge on only part of the pad, then the sealing pressure is much weaker in this area. It is like trying to sleep at the edge of a low quality inner-sprung mattress without falling off the bed. There is less support near the edge unless special steps (extra springing) are provided to compensate. This is not normally such a problem with conventional pads because they overflow the edge of the key cup, getting extra support at the edge, and effectively being of significantly greater diameter.
4. Any material that continues to bed in, deeper and deeper over a period of time is a problem especially with the larger keys where the travel of the 'outside' (furthest from the hinge) of the pad is 2 or 3 times greater than the travel of the 'inside' (nearest the hinge). The pad alignment keeps needing adjustment to stop leaks at the outside. We all know this problem even with conventional pads on the E/B and F/C keys, which NEVER leak on the 'inside' - always on the outside'. I have postulated that this phenomenon is because the 'outside' the travels further hence compresses further, beyond the 'elastic limit' of the pad material, so that permanent distortion (compression) occurs. The 'inside' does not reach the elastic limit so it is relatively stable in thickness. Although this phenomenon does exist with felt, it seems to me minimal with a good quality felt where the seating seems quickly to reach a stable state, even just by squeezing tight after installation.
5. A rounded edge to a pad reduces the turbulence of the air as it vibrates in and out of the tone hole, reducing the incidence of 'buzzy' or 'fuzzy' sounding notes. Both sharp edges, and deep seating increase turbulence, reducing tone clarity. Is this the case with the new Green-backs?
6. What happens to the adhesive when the instrument is (perhaps inadvertently) left in a warm place, say inside a car during summer?
Does it soften to the extent that the pad can move, compromising the seating?
7. I assume that the adhesive does not allow for tilting the angle of the pad within the cup to allow for minor discrepancies (the norm) in alignment of the pad cup with the tone hole. With hot-melt type adhesives, including shellac, there is plenty facility for adjustment. Is the installer of the self-adhesive pads competent and equipped to carry out the alternative, making minute adjustments to the alignment of the key cup itself? Or are these pads so squishy that they accommodate these discrepancies by uneven indentation? If so, do they have the firm, positive feel that players like?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-04-27 02:54
All I can say, Gordon, is that I have observed Forest Aten setting and sealing the Valentino Greenbacks and the only tool needed is a heat gun (as long as you don't use it so long that the thermal shutdown turns it off, right, Forest? ;^)
The tone is not blurry in the least (rounded or not rounded edges, turbulence, what have you seems to be irellevant if you can't hear any difference), the pads stay set, and the seal phenomenal.
I believe Forest floats the larger pads, but I'm sure ha can tell you more.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2002-04-27 12:47
I know that there are top technicians such as Albert Alphin who do use the Valentino pads. I have not had a complete pad job with them, but a previous clarinet that I owned had some in the top joint and they worked great. Sealed incredibly and lasted forever. A student of mine years ago had her marching horn done with them and after a couple of seasons of use, they still sealed like new. As I said, I never had a horn done completely with them, but I never noticed any negative qualities in tone. In fact they were quite nice and were not subject to any of the buzz you sometimes get with traditional skin pads.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2002-04-27 15:11
To: music-grl: I understand the stick on pads are to be used for "emergency" use only and I have heard that they do indeed have a tendency to either "move around" or even "fall off".
To Mark: Thank you for your quick response to Gordon's initial post. IMO, young people need as much positive reinforcement as they can get.
To Gordon: I bought an old Vito V40 off of Ebay and replaced all of the pads with Valentino Grenback pads from top to bottom by myself. IMO, you are indeed correct that some of the hole alignments can be extremely close to the edge of the Grenback Valentino pads. However, I have, so far, not noticed any problems with the "near edge" pads as far as leaking is concerned. As to the buzz or fuzzy sound of the perfectly flat Valentino Greenback pad, I have not noticed this on my clarinet and actually enjoy the clarity of sound that it produces.
Good clarinetting, everyone!
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-04-27 15:34
Gordon,
1 You are correct in the assumption that the "greenback" pad is held in place with only the slightest amount of "glue" at the edge of the pad. Pete Valentino has told me that the cement is a 3M product and simply adheres to the side of the cup. In my experience using the pads, the amount of cement is so minimal that I have a difficult time even feeling the adhesive. I have not had problems with pads smaller than 14mm moving.
2 It is very important that the pad cup be level or perfectly aligned (at the perpendicular axis) with the seat cut on the instrument. Setting a pad level, (parallel axis), can be easily achieved by selecting the correct thickness of pad or the use of shims. Elevation, (pad surface of pad to seat), can be easily adjusted by seating different thickness of pad or adjusting the mechanical key throw. I find that most good woodwind repair techs know how to use shims from their experience setting flute pads. Shims are a good thing to know how to use when working with synthetic pads.
3 On all pads larger than 14 mm, I "float" a standard Valentino pad. I do not use the "greenback" on these larger pads. I haven't had much success keeping "greenback" pads larger than 14 mm in place. Pete Valentino recommends this too.
4 I find that the air and sound waves come off surface of the Valentino pad in a very predictable way. Clear, very clear sound is reflected off of the pad surface. Some people have made and observation of having a brighter sound after an overhaul with the Valentino pad....I'm not sure that this is how I would describe the change. I have Valentino pads on all of the instruments that I play professionally. I love the sound that I am able to produce from my clarinets and I like the fact that they "play" the same day in and out. François Kloc uses Valentino pads often and Tom Ridnour uses the Valentino's extensively (note: not exclusively). Tom was the head of Leblanc's manufacturing operation in Kenosha and now has a custom clarinet shop at Brook Mays music in Dallas, Tx. Use of these pads by clarinet repair/design guys at this level are a petty good endorsement, I'd say.
5 Seats in the surface of the pad don't have to be "deep". When seating a Valentino pad, you heat the surface slightly and then close the pad. If you have a spring loaded key, you simply allow the light pressure generated by the spring to seat the pad. For open keys you can either hold the pad cups down lightly for a few seconds after heating or use key depression springs to hold down the key. The tension on these springs must be carefully set to avoid too deep of seat. When I do a complete overhaul using Valentino pads, I set and level all pads at the elevation that I predict to be the best choice for intonation. I base elevation decisions on three things. One on current measured elevation. The player who has entrusted his instrument to me for repair is familiar with the pitch produced with the pads at the elevation set when I accepted the clarinet. If I change that elevation I may meet with an angry player at the end of the process. I always measure elevation. Second, I ask the player if they have any notes on the instrument that are a problem with pitch or color. I may be able to make simple adjustments in pad elevation to moderate the problem. Third, I have the advantage of being a clarinet player....I play the instrument and make suggestions based on my observations.
A few observations....
I have yet to play a clarinet with felt pads/cork pads that seal like (as well as) a clarinet with Valentino synthetic pads.
If converting from felt to Valentino...it takes a lot of time as you have to remove all keys and clean the pad cups very carefully. Also, all cups must be carefully aligned with the pad seat on the instrument.
On earlier versions of most synth pads...the foam backing was not dense enough. This lead to a situation where the pad compressed and the seat got deeper and deeper...until it was a problem. I find that all of the pads have gone to a more dense backing and for the most part this problem has been eliminated. Even if you do have compression over a period of years....Valentino has a lifetime warrantee. Just bring it back and have the pad replaced.
Lots of rambling.
Regards,
F. Aten
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-28 10:09
I, more than many, look forward to the perfect synthetic pad. Your post puts current synthetics (only 2 of quite a wide range that are available) in quite a positive light, but includes some statements and implications which I think qualify for just a little challenge before they are totally accepted by all. (BTW do you have marketing interests?)
1. If all is as rosy as you suggest, why are manufacturers not using them in professional quality instruments? Why are not MANY professional players using them? Or are they? Have I missed something? BTW are the discerning and respected Brannens using them as standard?
2. You write, "I have yet to play a clarinet with felt pads/cork pads that seal like (as well as) a clarinet with Valentino synthetic pads."
This, to me, is a mystifying statement. You must be in a very different environment from mine if you find that all felt/cork pads leak significantly, as you imply. Hundreds of instruments with felt/cork pads leave this establishment per year with no significant leakage.
3. You write, "If converting from felt to Valentino...it takes a lot of time as you have to remove all keys and clean the pad cups very carefully. Also, all cups must be carefully aligned with the pad seat on the instrument."
I would expect this to be standard practice with pad replacement of ANY type. It is certainly what I always do.
4. Adjustment by shimming pads is a totally non-standard procedure with any pads which are glued in; it would be quite impractical to make accurate adjustments with this method while glue is involved.
5. Choice of appropriate pad thickness is very important, but available size increments are nowhere near small enough to rely on this method for accurate adjustments to pad seating. It would also mean a great wastage of pads, because they do not take kindly to repeated installation and removal. The only 2 methods with accuracy are aligning key cups (by bending), or by shifting the pad on a bed of glue that can be softened. (Sanding may be used with cork pads.)
6. You say the 'greenback' pad is held in place with only the slightest amount of "glue" at the edge of the pad. I take it you mean that there is no adhesion at the BACK of the pad. Standard diameter increments for pads 0.5 mm, which means there is the potential for a gap of up to 0.5 mm at the side of a pad (accepting little precision in standardization of key cup sizes, and assuming that pads may not be perfectly centred within the pad cup's cavity). This is a lot of space to be filled by the "slightest amount" of glue, so it seems to me there is a high likelihood that pads are not secured around the entire circumference. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the acknowledged problems with larger pads.
Although I willingly accept that eventually there may be an ideal synthetic pad, I am not prepared to accept that there is a practical and reliable way of dispensing with a solid backing to stabilize the location of the pad. I consider a solid backing material behind the pad to be essential for reliability of seating. It is only some clarinets that have this in the form of a flat surface at the bottom of the key cup; all others need a filler-type glue to provide it.
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Author: forest@woodwind.org
Date: 2002-04-28 14:36
Gordon,
I have no commercial interest in Valentino. I use them when I repair clarinets. If that represents commercial interest...that's it.
I also remove all keys in a pad overhaul...no matter which pad I use. When I replace a single pad...or a few...and if the orginal cement used is consistant with what I use, I don't remove the key unless I have to. In most cases it is unnecessary.
Shims...Valentino Greenback pad are a *dry* application. The use of carefully placed shims (as in flute pad installation) is a very practical and effective way to ensure a perfect seat.
All clarinets leak...by degree. My statement was to stress that the viton covering on a Valentino pad is a far better surface for creating a more perfect seal. This is easy to observe. Find the best (best seal) felt/cork padded clarinet you can find...find a well padded Valentino clarinet and compare. It takes about 32 seconds (only because you have to set one clarinet down and pick up the second) to make the observation and decision.
Is 10/1000 of an inch not a small enough change in pad size (thickness) increment? This is what you can currently count on from Valentino. For most applications I find this to be just fine.
If you decide on Greenback pads, you use a pad size that is "pressed" into the cup, this makes a solid contact between pad and key cup. If you use standard Valentino pads, you select a pad size that allows you to float the pad freely in the cup.
You know Gordon....you don't have to use greenbacks to get the benefit of the Valentino pad. You can buy standard Valentino pads and float everything. I use greenbacks without issue up to the 14 mm pad size. As I said before, at that point I do not have good luck keeping the pad in a stable position. I use the standard pad and float.
I understand your skepticism. If you're really interested, my advise to you is to try the pad. If you've never tryed a Valentino pad, don't you think it's pretty silly to say that "someday" the perfect synthetic pad will come around??? This "perfect" pad may be already be here and you don't even know it.
P.S.-I know many professional clarinet players using synthetic pads. If not on the entire clarinet....at least on the top key joint......much better seal and much quieter than cork.
F. Aten
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-29 14:45
I have tried Valentinos, have a significant stock of them, and regard it as a very much wasted purchase.
10/1000"! Do Valentinos really come in a range of thicknesses increasing by 0.01"? Not in the catalogues I have seen, so I don't understand what you are saying.
BTW 0.01" is 1/4 mm and I regard this a a HUGE increment for thickness adjustment for pad seating purposes. I regard my adjustment for clarinet pad seating, as ascertained by use of a 0.0008" feeler, to be at least 10 times this accuracy, as would be absolutely vital for flutes, for which pad shims are used down to 0.001"
We seem to be writing about very different types of pad installation.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-04-29 16:59
In my web search for further comments on Valentino pads I found little, except that Fox uses Greenbacks for bassoons - I don't recal seeing them myself - and the following which provide another opinion based on experience.
http://www.jazz-clarinet.com/article.pl?sid=01/04/15/2020238
http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1994/06/000117.txt
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2007-01-16 05:23
The new Leblanc Cadenza (designed by Morrie Backun and made in North America) uses that Valentino pads on all keys...top and bottom joints. It is definitely a professional clarinet.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-01-16 05:41
since Gordon wrote his posting in 2002 a number of pro players in NZ (where he works) have started using Valentino pads. In terms of being able to judge the "airtightness" of musical instruments, to my knowledge there is nowhere in NZ one of those "vacuum measuring" machines (that i know Mr Backun has access to, as do many other US technicians). These machines would be the only way to accurately compare the comparitive sealing qualities of pads, and even then it would be moot as to whether you were measuring the pad or the application....
hmmmmm
donald
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-01-16 19:52
I agree with the initial assessment of the Valentino pads - YUCH !!!!!
They deaden your sound. Just takd a screw driver (or something tiny and stiff) and gently prod the edges of the pads. They are VERY squishy. In any other application to which one could point, soft, squishy material DEADENS sound.
In addition to that, trills, mainly on the side keys, sound much less distinct with Valentinos compared particularly with cork but are even less distinct than bladder or leather pads.
Finally, as has been pointed out, Valentinos seat very deeply which may also contribute to deadening the sound (opposed to a flat surface like cork) but this is also cause for the seat to go out of adjustment more spectacularly when they do fail.
Sorry, I hate these pads .
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Detru Cofidin
Date: 2007-01-16 21:25
WOW, what a "serious" issue. I'd just say to leave it up to personal preference.
I pad my own clarinet with non-self-adhesive pads, with hot glue and a small torch, and I've never had any problem doing it myself that way.
I don't think I'd kill myself about whether I used pads that are self-adhesive or not...like I say, it's up to the individual
Nicholas Arend
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-16 22:36
I used some Valentino pads to repad my Keilwerth Oehler system, only because I couldn't be arsed to use white leather or cork pads as this clarinet isn't worth it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-01-21 21:16
i'm waiting for the advent of clarinets that are disposable after a week, sort of like contact lenses!
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-01-21 21:30
We have plenty of those on the markey already, though some models won't last a full week, so avoid them . . . I learned about them right here on this BB . . . folks call 'em CSO's.
Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-22 11:58
In some ways it's more economical to buy a new FSO (that's Flute-Shaped Object - not the car!) every year and bin it or pass it on instead of having a flute serviced every year which is more costly than a FSO.
The Yamaha 211 copies do play remarkably well for what they are, though still use a decent headjoint with them and not the one they come with.
But as for CSOs, they're a lost cause.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-01-22 13:12
> But as for CSOs, they're a lost cause.
And, being made out of plastic, they can't even be used in the fireplace.
I used to object to the idea of abusing musical instruments for illuminating purposes, but since having touched a CSO I am a bit more open to such frivolous ideas.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-01-22 13:20
But be careful with these, chances are they'll melt very easily and give off toxic fumes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mark Fleming
Date: 2007-01-22 18:04
I've done similar refurbishments with a couple of metal clarinets and it's great fun. Purchasing a $12 Ebay metal clarinet actually got me back into playing several years ago. I've noticed recently that the prices seem to be rising. People are finding out how good they sound considering the majority were low-end horns for students. I recently sold one on Ebay for several times what I paid and I kept the case and the Selmer crystal mouthpiece that came with it.
I bought Valentino greenback kits, not the stick-on type of pads. I always assumed the stick-on type were used when you had no access to repair facilities and, for some reason, needed to continue playing no matter how poorly the instrument sounded after an attempted temporary repair. I've never been in a situation like that and can't even imagine how it would arise.
In addition to the pad kit, you'll need a jeweller's screwdriver set, some polish, light oil, and baggies. I took my metal clarinets apart, leaving the pieces spread across the kitchen table in the order that I removed them. Where a key involved several parts and springs, all were placed in a ZipLok.
Polish when the pieces are off (chrome or similar polish). As you replace a pad cup, put a dab of hot glue on the back of the pad and insert it into the cup. Don't worry too much about how level the pad is in the cup. Once completely installed, use a micro torch (my choice) or a soldering iron to reheat the metal pad cup (being careful not to actually touch the cup or get the flame near the foam pad. Using an aluminum foil shield really helps). As the glue gets hot, you'll see the pad shift in the cup and automatically level itself to fit the hole. Use what seems to be too little glue because it will goop out around the pad if too much is used. Perfect pads everytime. Oil the friction points after the pad is set. This is at least a six hour project for a complete tear-down.
If you don't need or want to polish, it's also possible to just heat the cup, pop out the old pad, and in with the new pad and a dab of hot glue, leaving the old glue residue in place. Heat the cup to seat the pad and you've got a repad in under an hour.
I imagine the self-proclaimed purists are pulling their hair and knashing their teeth. Get over it. This process is to create a $50 clarinet that can be taken camping. Or left in the car trunk for a week. Or left in the attic for 20 years. Or played in the shower with no ill effects. Well, I haven't actually played mine in the shower, but now that I've thought about it, I might try it.
My old Selmer is packed away in a closet. My others are in storage. My metal clarinet sits on a stand by the fireplace and gets played almost every day. No swabbing, no oiling, no worries about humidity or even the heat from the fireplace.
Mark Fleming
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-01-22 19:57
I also bought a metal clarinet on the unmentionable auction site and had it overhauled. It had a fantastic sound and was very nicely in tune. I ended up selling it because I was used to my old clarinet's key-action and the key-action of the metal one was a bit stiffer. Probably due to the set-up because some of the springs and things had to be redone. But I was a bit of a novice at gear acquisition at the time and didn't bug the tech guy about it.
I see why people like them and keep them for outdoor instruments.
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