 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2005-12-05 06:35
Last year I happened to attend a Amherst Early Music associated Brass Festival and heard an 1880s era band that was pitched ar A=457. Since then I picked up an old albert system clarinet that is unmarked except for a "B" on the bell. It came in an old conn case. It is shorter than a modern clarinet and seems about a semi tone sharp. Is it possible that this is an instrument that is pitched at 457?
I would very much like to know what the history is for these high pitched instruments. Like, when they were used and where and why? Or even where i can find out. I'm sorry if this is an obvious question or has been discuused at length. I am pretty new to the board.
thanks
J B
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-12-05 09:00
This thread may interest! ...
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=200575&t=200545
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2005-12-05 18:44
Thanks for the link, but I dont think it applies. The instrument shown look like a modern german fingering instrument where mine is the old 12 key Albert system. Also somewhere I read or was told that "B" was marked on german instrument to indicate a Bb clarinet? I am really out of me depth as I don't understand all the details and have a pretty erratic memory. But one question woud be is this a instrument in "B" or "Bb"pitched at A=457hz Unfortunately I only have a couple of simple tuners that do not let me set 457 as reference.
J B
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Author: Kalakos
Date: 2005-12-06 02:04
<<But one question woud be is this a instrument in "B" or "Bb"pitched at A=457hz Unfortunately I only have a couple of simple tuners that do not let me set 457 as reference.
J B>>
Hi, JB:
Play your instrument's "C" note (the lower one is fine). Then find that note on your tuner or piano or pitch pipe. If it's a C clarinet it'll be a C; if it's a Bb Low Pitch, it'll be a Bb; and if it's a Bb High Pitch or B natural, it'll be a B (or whatever pitch it might be tuned to).
Good luck.
Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2005-12-06 13:05
Thanks for the suggestions. I tried it and I got kind of funny results. Of course I am not sure of the Abert fingerings so that may enter into it. At any rate, thumb and three fingers down on left hand (C?) gives "B" about 35 cents flat. All openings closed gives "D" aboutr 20 cents sharp. All open gives "F#" about 25 cents flat. Three fingers and thumb of left hand plus first finger of right hand gives "A" 25 cent sharp. Finally, thumb and first two fingers of left hand give "C#" about 25 cents flat. So is it safe to say it is not a instrument in "B"? How close is it to A=457?? Why the H__l 457??? (Or why not????) This is really got me curious. Oh, one other thing overall length from bottom of bell to top of barrel is 22.25" Anyway thanks for any help or advice you can give
J B
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-12-06 17:39
It is highly unlikely to be a clarinet in B. There is some doubt about whether such an instrument has been made since the time of Mozart.
Germans refer to Bb as B (Bnatural is H) so if the "B" marking refers to its pitch at all, it means Bb.
So it is a high pitch Bb instrument. Pitch standards have varied a lot over the years and from place to place. A=440 dates only to 1939, and is not universally followed even now. (For historically informed performances, it is certainly not followed.)
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/eng_pitch.html is one reference - there are many more - to this subject.
Also http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_911_jbt_tune.html, which I hope is intended as some sort of joke.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2005-12-06 20:10
Thank sir! Just the kind of information I was looking for. I am involved with early music in the USA and am familiar with Baroque 415 pitch and earlt Renaissance 467 (i think) and as I said I ran into a brass band playing 1880s instruments at 457. This clarinet actually play quite well. Are there any music groups playing high pitched woodwinds? I am looking of motivation to learn the Albert system.
J B
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Author: Dee
Date: 2005-12-06 23:26
For a Bb clarinet pitched at A=457, the fingered C will roughly halfway between B and Bb. The fingering for C is indeed 3 fingers and thumb. If it was reading a B about 35 cents flat, then it is indeed a High Pitch Bb instrument.
The current German Oehler system is an evolutionary development of the Albert system so many of the fingerings will be the same. The Oehler basically just has more keys to make certain notes easier to play. You should be able to find an Albert system fingering chart on the internet. If not, the Rubank Beginning Method Book has a fingering chart in it that has the Boehm system on one side and the Albert system on the other.
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Author: J B Lansing
Date: 2005-12-07 00:51
Thank you for the information, I will see what I can find. It does seem that this is a high piched instrument. I am interested in you comments about the Albert system evolving into the Oehler system. The clarinet I have has, as I said 12 keys it also as just two rings for the 2nd and 3rd right hand fingers. The mouthpiece is made up of two parts The upper has a thin metal tube that slides into the lower part that is wrapped with thread (not cork) and inserts into the barrel. All very different from modern clarinets. But I can see that pulling out the metal tube is less disruptive to the bore that pulling the barrel out on a modern clarinet. A a comment I got from one of the brass players in the 1880s brass band was that they had a hard time finding clarinet players with high pitch instruments and that they would like to do so as the town band of the 1880s were starting to use clarinets. Unfortunately this band is located (I think) in Maryland. so is not close to me.
J B
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