 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: claricat
Date: 2005-10-20 15:44
I had never played C clarinets before, but thought it would be neat to have one because I play at church a lot and get sick of transposing everything. (Slow things like hymns are no problem, but I get a lot of fast parts in my church group that I end up having to write out in the right key.)
I have a new Buffet E11 C clarinet that I am trying on a trial period and am thinking of buying. But I was disappointed that it has several notes that are out of tune, with the throat "A" being especially bad (really sharp). I guess from what I've looked up on this bulletin board, having to constantly adjust for being out of tune is just something I have to deal with for C clarinets?
I have a certain budget - I didn't want to spend over $1500, so that rules out the Patricola C clarinet and probably others. But I was wondering if it is worth trying any of the lower priced brands like the Amati C clarinet, or the Allora C clarinet (Tom Ridenour's)? Or are they going to be just as bad or even worse out of tune than the Buffet?
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-20 15:49
The older Noblet C clarinets aren't too bad.
Throat notes can be tuned without causing problems in other registers, the A tonehole can be filled to flatten it, but take it to someone that knows what they're doing, but do try it with the barrel pulled out by 1mm as well as using the standard fingering corrections/resonance fingerings.
Board member Willy 'BassetHorn' plays an Amati C clarinet, so I think this topic will definitely get his attention (waves at Willy).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-20 16:26)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-20 16:15
(Disclaimer - Forte' Instrument Group is coming out with a "C" clarinet 2006)
Of course this is only testing of a couple of each variety and should not be generalized without an idividual testing on their own. More expensive "C" clarinets were tested but not commented here. We have made a pretty detailed study of current and older "C" clarinets as research. Of the <$1500 "C" clarinets IMHO the Ridenour and some older Noblet C clarinets have the best intonation. The E-11's had a couple of common intonation problems which could be improved by a competent technician. The throat tones are the biggest problem on the clarinets tested both in clarity and tuning. Another potential problem is that some use a Bb mouthpiece while others have a specific "C" mouthpiece using a different blank configuration. The character and bore of the Bb mouthpiece may therefore contribute to some of the tuning problems.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-10-20 16:21
Claricat,
I had an E-11 C clarinet several years ago before getting a Particola. It was my experience that the E-11 was helped (both intonation and tonal quality) by using a "real" C clarinet mouthpiece instead of a Bb mouthpiece. A Ralph Morgan C clarinet mouthpiece made a night-and-day difference for me (one can be special ordered through junkdude.com). Trying a C mouthpiece and having your clarinet checked out by a good repair tech, as Chris suggested, would be much cheaper than getting another clarinet -- in particular, since you don't want to spend more than $1,500. If you decide to check out a Morgan C mouthpiece, I'd suggest a RM10 facing. I've found that facing to be a better match for a C clarinet than the more open models such as a RM15 or RM28.
Another option to consider would be to sell your E-11 and add the money you get from the sale to your $1,500 budget. That should give you enough to get a Patricola C. There is no contest between the quality of a Patricola versus an E-11. Having said that, I had some work done to my Patricola to correct several minor things that bothered me about it. It has a beautifully sweat sound and better intonation than an E-11. At least that was my experience with the two C clarinets.
PS, I'm a fan of old (pre-70's) Noblet clarinets; however, I'm taken aback by the quality of the current production Noblets. Really, the old ones were so much better in terms of their workmanship and materials. Rather than get a cheaper C clarinet, I can't help but think that you'd be happier in the long run by saving your money and getting a better quality instrument.
Good luck, Roger
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-10-20 16:23
An important point to remember: The Buffet E11 clarinet, with the factory supplied 46.5mm barrel is pitched at A=442.
Obviously, a slightly longer barrel will bring down the pitch of the entire clarinet, especially the throat tones.
Tapered barrels (Chadash, Moennig) can significantly help throat tones.
I use a Morgan C clarinet mouthpiece with my R13 C clarinet (282xxx), to help with the overall response and tuning. With the correct bore and internal chamber dimensions, it makes the clarinet play with more accurate pitch.
Now the C clarinet actually feels and plays like a slightly smaller Bb clarinet. Not like a previously unrelated member of the clarinet family...GBK
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-10-20 16:36
My R-13 C clarinet used to have some irritating intonation tendencies, such as flat throat tones and altissima register notes. When I experimented with different mouthpieces recently, I found (hooray) that the Morgan RM-06 not only took care of these tuning anomalies, but also improved the sound of the instrument, so that it sounded more like a Bb clarinet and less like an Eb clarinet.
My advice: before you surgically alter your C clarinet, see if finding a better bore and chamber match with mouthpiece selection doesn't help fix the problem. This is consistent with the Doctor's good advice.
Post Edited (2005-10-20 16:36)
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2005-10-20 17:12
I have an Amati C that I picked up from Music123. A number of good players have tried it and we are all in agreement, it's the best bargain around, not perfect, but a pretty good horn. For $525 how can you go wrong and if you don't like it send it back. Or have the tone holes undercut and get it tuned by a pro.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-10-20 18:10
Is the Amati plastic or wooden?
$525 is pretty amazing if it's wooden. I'll bet the Forte C will be really good.
Omar is putting quality stuff out there!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-20 18:19
The Amati ACL 351 C clarinet is wooden:
http://www.amati.cz/english/production/instruments/Files/acl/acl_351g.htm
But the 251 has plastic body joints, but with a wooden barrel and bell! Strange - you'd have thought it'd be the other way round.
And they offer a LH Ab/Eb key as well - the only C larinet I know what that as standard is the plastic Weril C clarinet - but I haven't tried one, and if they play as bad as they look then I'll not be bothering.
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Author: claricat
Date: 2005-10-20 18:36
Thanks for the replies so far, everyone...
My trial period with the new Buffet E11 C clari is almost over -- in a couple weeks I have to mail it back if I decide not to keep it, but with the advice so far I'm thinking I will:
1. quick order both an Amati and an Allora (Ridenour) and compare those C clarinets with the Buffet E11
2. order a Morgan mouthpiece to try with all 3
Do you all think that sounds like a good plan?
Of course I'll have to pay a fee to send each horn back, plus the shipping, but I am curious to try the other 2 horns since some people like them.
Are there different kinds of Morgan mouthpieces, or just one kind?
Where is the best place to order a Morgan mouthpiece?
Also does anyone have advice about what place has the best price for the C clarinets from Amati, Allora, and Buffet? I had ordered the Buffet E11 from WoodwindBrasswind for about $1300, and the Patricolas from there were too expensive ($2200 for a NON factory sealed one) otherwise I'd have tried that too.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-10-20 19:30
The only thing that might be a problem is that you'll probably have to order a Morgan C mouthpiece as a special order. I'm not aware of any music shops that stock them. You see, Ralph Morgan does not make C clarinet mouthpieces on a regular basis. Thus, it's a special order kind of thing. If you order one through junkdude.com (Dave Hoskins) it's highly likely that it will take a couple of months for your order to work its way in the order queue to Ralph's workbench. (I'm currently waiting on a couple of new saxophone and clarinet mouthpieces.) It would be a good idea to contact Dave at junkdude.com to see how long he thinks it might take to get a C mouthpiece. Dave serves as Ralph Morgan's point of contact for phone and internet orders. Dave is a great person to deal with. Great customer service. He'll take good care of you.
Hope this helps, Roger
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-10-20 19:57
I have an E-11 C clarinet and I had just had to do some minor adjustments with regard to key heights. Plays great and in tune now with not much fuss.
I played the Patricolas and others and didn't find anything that really came close in the sound. I even played the Prestige C's and found them lacking in comparison to my E-11. So, I spent $3000 less and came out with a better instrument. Perhaps I just got a good one? Why not try others?
IMHO,
Michael
www.michaelnorsworthy.com
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2005-10-20 20:02
I've very recently bought an Arioso C clarinet from Tom Ridenour, and am really pleased with it - it plays well in tune except that I have to 'tweak' the altissimo a little, and is a very comfortable instrument to play. 
Joanna Brown
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Author: William
Date: 2005-10-20 23:28
I play a Buffet E11 C clarinet with my Bb/A mouthpiece (Chicago Kaspar) on a Chadash barrel and have no trouble playing it tune. Mine has a decent sound and even scale, just wish I had more opportunities to use it in our orchestra--it's really kind of fun to play.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-20 23:59
I had two 30+ year old Noblets come in a while back, both for full overhauls - both turned up within a month of each other.
They were fantastic instruments to work on and play. I was tempted to buy one of them for myself, and it's a shame I didn't.
Anyone know if such a thing as a full Boehm C clarinet exists? Preferrably a Selmer CT or Series 9 or any pro Leblanc - that'd be nice.
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Author: MGustavson
Date: 2005-10-21 13:43
I have a new E11 C clarinet. It's tuning characteristics are similar to the R-13 Bb. I use my Bb mouthpiece with it and had Chadash rebore the barrel. He says the bore on the barrel is typicaly too large. So he bores it out and puts in a rubber insert (same rubber that is used on his mouthpiece blank) and makes a reverse taper. Ta-Da. The instrument plays a beautiful scale and plays in tune in orchestra.
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Author: kfeder@hotmail.com
Date: 2005-10-21 21:11
I have an Amati C which I like. I tried 2 and one of them was not in adjustment but the one I kept has been a real help in playing music that has not been transposed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-21 21:46
I bought a Lyons plastic C clarinet to do the last movement of 'Carnival of the Animals' back at college - that was when they were new to the market.
Strange thing it was too, and it was very bendy - even the body would bend. Having said that, it did play very well with a better than expected tone, the tuning was good and it went up to altissimo G easily. I might dig it out of the attic one day. I bought a B44 Eb mouthpiece for it as the one it came with wasn't much cop, and I still use the B44 on Eb now.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-22 03:29
Throat tone A is one of the easiests nots to tune. as the tone holes are not used (much) for other notes.
Adding material in the A tone hole (and perhaps the tone hole for G#) is fairly easy and effective. Remeber, though, that anything done there will pull down the Bb also.
I wouldn't do anything "permanent" until I had the instrument for several months.
Please remember that ALL clarinets are built "out-of-tune". We just get used to the way certain makers wil tune a specific model of Bb or A clarinet.
Also, with the very short barrel, embouchure failings will have a much greater impact than on Bb or A.
I have seen some C clarinets that HAD to have a barrel replaced, to have any hope at all of being played in tune, however.
Since no one else has mentioned it, I also make a "C clarinet friendly" mouthpiece.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2005-10-22 11:40
There are other threads about C clarinets in the Ethnic Clarinet board.
These are currently available:
Buffet RC (special order?)
Stephen Fox (made-to-order)
Allora / Arioso ASC105
Noblet 45C
Buffet E11C
Patricola CL7C
Amati 351C
Woodwind C
Lyons C
I have a Fox and really like it. Use it for Klez, or to play flute duos.
Other posts have lauded Backun-ized Buffet E-11.
These both use standard Bb/A mouthpieces.
Regards
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