 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2005-01-10 01:09
I am having the absolute worst time trying to fix my tonguing woes. It's improved wonders from where it used to be but it needs to be better for me to cleanly play my audition pieces for All-State and college.
Can anyone offer me detailed advice or anything on how I can more easily learn the correct tonguing method of tip-to-tip? I think that my problems are
1) Moving the embouchure
2) Moving too much of the tongue instead of the tip
3) Touching the top of the reed (over it) instead of slightly under the tip
I've been trying forever to fix this, with advice from this board, Robert Spring, my teacher, and others and it's just not happening. I'm getting so stressed out trying to find the tip and only move the tip and do everything lightly and correctly without screwing up other things like airflow and embouchure. Plainly, I'm finding it almost impossible. If anyone could offer some advice, I would greatly appreciate it, as I am struggling so much and really need to fix this fast.
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-01-10 01:18
The essay on Clarinet Fundamentals, by Charles West, that some good soul directed us to (I forget who, sorry, or where in web-land to find it) suggested putting your finger in your mouth the same amount as your mouthpiece is normally.
Then you can feel just where you are touching the "mouthpiece" / finger with your tongue and get it "right". Then replace your finger with the mouthpiece while holding your tounge still. Viola!
Hang on, I'll go see if Google finds the web page....
JDS
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-01-10 01:33
Nothing wrong with what Alexi found, but here's the article I mentioned...
http://www.midwestclinic.com/clinicianmaterials/2001/west.pdf
and another one too (although I wasn't able, yet, to look at it)
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~bhammel/winds/intonation_vmea_2002.pdf
JDS
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2005-01-10 01:44
Ooops, don't try to download the second file I mentioned - the one from vcu.edu. It locks up my browser for some reason. It might do the same to you.
JDS
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Author: msloss
Date: 2005-01-10 02:12
As I've mentioned before, check out Larry Guy's books. Extensive information on technique with emphasis on air, embouchere and articulation.
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2005-01-10 02:59
I found that the quality and ease of my tonguing was greatly improved by focussing the sound (using either an 'eee' syllable or a German "ue" sound). I find it difficult to make my tonguing consistent without a well-focussed airstream. Without focussed air the tongue doesn't seem to 'bounce' and it is difficult to have a light, reflexive action.
I worked on tonguing for a long time and that discovery was one of the most cathartic for me...
alex
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-01-10 03:29
You're trying to move JUST the tip of your tongue? Is that even possible?
Here's what I do (And I feel like I have *some* authority about tongueing as today I was told I had a tongue like a lizard when I did the Midsummer Night's Dream in an audition!):
Your throat should be in an E or an EU position (think speaking French) and therefore the back of the tongue should be in quite a high position (This helps focussing airstream). Then, provided your mouthpiece is in the right position and your embouchoure is steady and developed, it should be more or less an effortless motion where your tongue (ALL of it, not just the tip) touches down on the tip of the reed, closing it off completely, and then releasing, allowing air to once again flow through and make a sound.
Practice by playing a steady note, then stopping it with your tongue (but keep the air going) and then release, making a sound again.
I hope somebody can make sense of the above, or explain it more clearly. All I can say, if the above doesn't make much sense, that tongueing really depends on a great embouchoure, throat position, reed and mouthpiece. And above all else, a good air stream!
Just one last thing I have picked up on, based on your reed. It is important to muck around with the position you have it on your mouthpiece. I find that it should be JUST over the tip, so that when you press it with your finger (OR your lip) it should close exactly against the tip of the mouthpiece. This will ensure maximum response. Of course your mouthpiece may be very different to mine.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-10 18:38
Bigno16 -
From your description, you're going at maximum speed and trying to increase it. As you've found, this doesn't do much. Instead, you need to begin dead slow, to get everything right. Never go faster than perfect. Otherwise, you're just practicing how to do it wrong.
While I've found the method described in http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=32780&t=32715 to be useful, here's another exercise from the great oboist Robert Bloom, which I recently found in the IDRS Journal:
-- Start the metronome at 60.
-- Sit with your back straight, become aware of your sternum and prick your ears up. (I know this is imaginary, but it sets your posture and relaxes and lowers your shoulders.)
-- Put the reed on your lower lip, with no embouchure, and finger first space F# with your left index finger. The instrument balances on your thumb, your left index finger and your lip. Keep everything relaxed, with just enough pressure to hold the instrument steady.
-- Exhale gently and relax for two metronome beats.
-- Take a medium breath on beat 3.
-- On beat 4, as a single gesture, without moving the instrument or increasing finger pressure, make your embouchure, put your tongue on the reed and apply mezzo forte breath pressure. Don't play. Don't sway. Don't move the instrument. Don't permit even a tiny wobble in breath pressure. Hold the position through the rest of beat 4.
-- On beat 5, move your tongue back and down microscopically to let the tone begin perfectly, at a good mf. This is all that happens. The air pressure must stay exactly even. The tone must start with no hesitation, no "cluck," no accent and no wobble. Hold the tone for the rest of beat 5 and 6. Practice until you can do it 10 consecutive times perfectly.
-- Do the same exercise, except on beat 7, reverse the microscopic tongue movement, stopping the tone perfectly. Hold the position through the beat and then return to the initial position, with the reed on your lip and no embouchure. Do this, until it's perfect 10 consecutive times.
-- Then, work on a non-stopped staccato, with a microscopic brushing "La" tongue motion between notes.
-- Do each exercise slowly enough that you can visualize each movement beforehand. It's particularly useful to take beat 3 to visualize the complex movement you make on beat 4, and after you do that, take the rest of beat 4 to visualize the tongue release on beat 5.
-- Gradually increase the metronome speed, always backing off slightly when you make even a tiny mistake. You'll probably find that at a certain moderate speed -- say, 100 on the metronome -- you begin to stumble, even though you can, sort of, do it at 120. At any speed above this "sticking point" ***you're faking it*** and interfering with the training. The way to do it right is to move up against the sticking point and work your way through it.
There's no short cut. You have to do the fundamentals correctly.
Give this your best time, at the beginning of a practice session. Give it total concentration for 10 minutes. Then put it away to "cook." Once again, ***never go faster than perfect*** 2 minutes of slop will undo a half hour of work.
This slow work is the foundation for going fast. Give it your maximum effort for, let's say, two weeks. Then come back and let us know how you're doing. I think you'll be surprised.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2005-01-10 20:25
Thank you to everyone who replied. I really do appreciate it, it's my worst nightmare.
Ken, thank you so much as always. I am going to try that and I will report back with some results later on.
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Author: clarispark
Date: 2005-01-11 00:01
Good luck on your audition! I've been checking up on a lot of the links here because I have a college audition coming up too.
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Author: Bigno16
Date: 2005-01-11 01:54
clarispark--thanks and good luck to you too!
Ken--I've been trying to do your methods now and maybe I just am over-doing things or something but no matter how much I try, I can't seem to get this nice light, feeling with the tongue. For instance, I'm trying to do the exercises you suggested and I keep getting squeaks sometimes and not good tone quality. It seems like the only way for me to get some decent articulation is by using force. I know that's incorrect but it seems to be all that is working. I'm so confused and everything I try seems to not be working for me.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-11 15:44
Bigno16 -
I'm sure you can start the tone with just your breath. Separate out the elements. That is, make your embouchure, hold it for a beat (without blowing) and then start blowing. If you have trouble, it's because you're doing something else when you think that all you're doing is starting to blow. You may be moving your tongue, or squeezing with your embouchure, or moving your head forward, or making a chewing motion, or making a glottal stop to build up air pressure, or a dozen other things.
For the time being do everything you do for a breath start *except* blowing, and then start blowing.
If you still have problems, approach it from the other direction. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=32780&t=32715. Start with a continuous tone and put a "blip" in it by brushing your tongue against the reed. Use a "La" syllable, and deliberately miss the reed. Move gradually closer, until you barely touch the reed, and continue until the the tone stops and starts. Your tongue should move continuously, bumping the reed and going on.
Then, hold the stoppage for a beat, and let the tone start again by removing your tongue.
You have to eliminate everything except the tongue movement.
THOU SHALT NOT:
-- decrease your breath pressure to try to help the tone stop
-- increase your breath pressure to compensate for your tongue movement
-- tighten your vocal cords or any muscles in your neck
-- move your jaw
-- move your head, or your nose, or your eyebrows, or your ears
-- change your embouchure
-- move your soft palate
-- move any part of your tongue except the tip
This is *not* easy. You've been making the extra movements all your clarinet-playing life. They've become part of a group of movements you think of as a single movement called "tonguing."
That's why you have to start so slow, to remove the extra motions you've been automatically doing. This is best done with your teacher, who can watch and let you know exactly which extra movements you're making. It also helps to watch yourself in a mirror when you practice this at home.
I know -- it makes you feel like a beginner again. In a sense, you are. You have to relearn something basic. The reward is that when you can do it right, the process will be much lighter, "neater" and more efficient, not to mention faster.
Keep a pillow on a chair next to you. Cry and scream in frustration as necessary. I certainly did when I switched from anchor to tip tonguing. Remember that you already know how to tongue. Now, you're making a small change in something familiar, which will happen sooner rather than later as you keep working.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jkaye
Date: 2005-07-15 20:56
Bigno16-
I was curious to know if you play the piano as well??
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-07-15 22:29
Bigno16
Try using the syllable "tee" (what I use to move only the tip of the tongue and keep embouchure from moving). Start off with your tongue where you want it on the reed, then without moving your tongue, form the embouchure and tongue an open G. Then put your tongue back on the reed for a staccato effect. Open mouth, and without moving tongue, check to see where our tongue is in relation to where it began. Repeat as often as needed til you get it perfectly 10 times out of 10. Good Luck!!! Hope this Helps!!!
P.S. Practice with a mirror if you aren't already!!!
Post Edited (2005-07-15 22:32)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-07-15 23:02
[ For those who haven't noticed, this thread originated about 6 months ago - GBK ]
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Author: Avie
Date: 2005-07-16 22:29
The above instruction and advice given on the subject of Articulation IMO is fantastic and much appreciated. Although I am only a returning novice and am not able to contribute much I for one appreciate reading the advice and input of Ken Shaw, Tony Pay, GBK, Mark, etc. and of course Mark for the hard work of maintaining and controlling a resourceful Clarinet line of comunication. A monatary donation is a small price to pay for the knowledge we clarinet enthusiests gain by just reading some of the posts. Good Luck with your college and All-State try outs Bigno16. I hope you enjoyed Tony Pays very interesting link on Articulation as much as I did.
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