 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mwpalace
Date: 2005-02-20 12:56
My son's teacher from school sent home a note saying he needed to upgrade his instrument from plastic to wood. This seemed reasonable to me; since he has played for 4 years and will be going to high school next year. The teacher also notified us of a local music store which was going to be having special discounts one day for students from this school district. I talked to my son but I dont think I knew the right questions to ask. What he knows is that his teacher recommended a new clarinet. He had an opportunity to try a wood clarinet at school and shared with me how much better it sounded. Followed by his teacher recommended this store and then by the clerk recommending a Buffet clarinet.
My son is interested in playing in the marching band in High school. The store clerk recommended he keep his plastic clarinet for marching practices but that he buy the wood clarinet for performances and competitions. The clarinets we were shown started at $1500. That seems like a lot of money for an instrument to be used only for performances. Which due to some recent changes in my health situation is extremely taxing to my finances. If he needs a wood clarinet, I will find a way for him to get one. I am way confused about brands and mouthpieces and even types of clarinets (e.g. Bb clarinets, bass clarinets, ect.) available. Should I be looking for a Bb clarinet? Is this the standard type of clarinet taught in schools? If we get a new clarinet whould we also need to buy a new mouthpiece? I didnt know there was a differnce in mouthpieces until I started reading this bullentin boards. I thought they were standard. He has never used a different or updgraded mouthpiece. I considered ebay or pawn shops but am concerned about getting a poor quality instrument or the wrong kind and just wasting my money. If i order something online I want to know I am ordering the right thing. Any help, suggestions, and advice would be greatly appreciated. I want to get him what he needs but I want to be realistic also. Help!
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Author: ClariBone
Date: 2005-02-20 13:30
An upgraded clarinet would definitely help get your son "ahead of the competition" at high school, but you need to watch for a few things. Is he responsible enough to both care for and protect this wooden clarinet? By this I mean, does he let his friends mess with it, or does he neglect cleaning the plastic clarinet he own already?? If he does the aformentioned things, he may not be ready for a new wooden clarinet. A wooden clarinet is more delicate than the plastic. Also does your son want to continue with music as a career or to get scholarship $$$ in college?? If not, then due to your financial situation you might seriously rethink it. Another option, if your son isn't sure that he could maintain, or wants to play the clarinet at all after high school, or if the budget is tight, would be to buy a used wooden clarinet. Try to take his teacher along, and look for things like the brand (stick with Buffet, LeBlanc, Selmer, or Yamaha a.k.a."Big 4"), and cracks in the wood. Also make sure to send it to an EXPERIENCED clarinet technician. This would give your son a nice sounding wood clarinet, in perfect working order, for a modest price. Warning: NOT TO BE MARCHED WITH AT ALL!!!!!! This could ruin any wooden clarinet (ahem..guard girls (flag team), a trombone in 7th position, or a bass drum are very real dangers on the marching field) so stick with the plastic clarinet for ALL outside performances. I hope this helps!!!!
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2005-02-20 14:27
You would be amazed what you can find at local pawn shops/ flea markets. And that price is VERY high unless he is getting an R13 and even then it is a bit high I believe, my E11 cost me $600 from Sam Ash, their are many stores out their over charging... Is it possible for you guys to go to another store?
Oh and along with the big four consider Evette and Schaffer, which you may find used, it is the same as a buffet, they bought them out years ago.
If you do a search you'll find mixed opinions of Amati's I honestly haven't tried one but remember that a number of people have had their's gone over and came out w/ a nice instrument that wasn't to pricey. And I think they're pretty looking heh
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Author: William
Date: 2005-02-20 15:08
Keep the plastic clarinet for marching, out-door pep rallies, etc.
Most "bang for the buck" upgrade to a wood clarinet is the Buffet E11. Good sound and intonation that will be acceptable throughout high school, college (non music major) and a lifetime of adult community band.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 15:15
I think your son is probably playing a Bb soprano clarinet, so that's what you should be looking for. Don't worry about Basses, Altos, Eb soprano, or anything of the sort. Bb Soprano (standard taught).
used clarinets are not as expensive as new clarinets and are just as good. Buffets are the best kind of clarinet in my opinion. R-13 models are professional, and go for about $1800 NEW, but used, are less. E-11 models are good, but not professional. I'm not sure about the cost of the E-11, but you should check that out. I believe there is also an E-12 (also not pro, but good)
important: when you go to buy a clarinet, make sure your son tries as many clarinets as possible. He should make sure that it has good intonation (so use a tuner) and that the notes all come out. It is imperitive that it sounds better than his old one. If possible, see if his teacher can accompany you, the teacher will know what's good and what's not.
Also, if you can, try different mouthpieces too, just to see what sounds good- find a perfect combo right then and there. Also try different reeds too.
(Good brands: Vandoren, Vandoren V-12, Gonzalez, Zonda)
if ordering offline I think the two safest places are: e-bay and Woodwind and Brasswind (I believe the site is www.wwbw.com, or www.woodwindbrasswind.com) they allow you to try out the clarinet and send it back if you are not satisfied. they also offer clarinets at good prices.
also: if he gets a wooden clarinet, aside claribone's advice, I have one thing to add: wood is liable to crack, so he should play it very little when he first gets it (if he does, that is). I'd say about 2 hours at a time, for about 2 weeks. if he needs it more than 2 hours (a day, that is), he should switch to the plastic, because the wood may crack if played more than that. After 2 weeks I think he may play it for longer increments of time. I'm sure someone here knows the exact timeline. and make sure he doesn't bring it outside (if not in the case). I have seen people march with their wooden clarinets, so if he must, then do it, but I'd never bring mine outside to march. I have played outdoor concerts though. so I'm a fence sitter. however, be very careful about drastic temperature changes- the clarinet can easily crack in the freezing cold, especially if he has been playing, then packs up and goes out into the snow or something.
make sure he swabs it after each use because the water inside can freeze and might crack the wood faster.
mouthpiece: Hite mouthpieces are good. I wrote an entry about them, but I suppose I can put it here too-
121-D
J&D Hite
Bb clarinet mouthpiece
Model D
info at:
David Hite, Inc.
239-947-8803
info@jdhite.com
www.jd.hite.com
it's a great mouthpiece. It gives a nice, dark sound; good intonation... I think mine cost around $60, but check out the site or call the number and get the details. it's well worth it. The mouthpiece that comes with the clarinet is usually horrible. If it sounds alright when you pick a clarinet, then don't bother, but I recommend springing for a new Mouthpiece.
as for ligatures I recomment any Rovner (fabric) ligature. I have the Mark III version, but I hear any Rovner lig is good. But, though some people don't agree with me, stay away from metal ligatures. stick with the fabric ones. And I hear from a realiable source that the more fabric, the darker the sound (which is good). but it's up to you. call your local music store for more info on ligatures, especially on the Rovner.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-02-20 18:58
In researching a little before I offered advice here, I came across this review:Quote:
I bought this instrument 6 months ago, and I am totally pleased with it. I believe there is nothing better in it's price range. I bought my daughter a similar instrument in a competitive brand before I bought this for myself, and there is no comparison. I wish I had bought her one of these instead. They are solid and durable, great intonation for it's price range, the silver looks great, and stays looking great with minimum maintenance. [....]
Wow...I sure hope he says "I wish I had bought her one instead...." because he traded with her and now has to play on the lesser model. Chivalry? Being a loving father? I dunno where that would fit.
Anyways....
It appears that the Buffet E-11 is a good choice from what I can see. Personally I am not sure what or why there would be much difference between it and better instruments considering all the work that must go in to getting an instrument to that point, making it "professional" doesn't seem to warrant the complete doubling or tripling of price. But what do I know...I just blow notes.
I would recommend trying to find a used one if possible. Cracking is most prominent in newer instruments of a year or younger (regardless of care). Disclaimer: That is not to say that an older instrument cannot or will not crack. So a used E-11 is my recommendation unless you can find a good deal on an Buffet R-13.
I might offer another bit of advice: Find an older (experienced, not some college newbie) clarinet instructor (preferably one that currently performs on clarinet) and offer to pay them $30 to play test some instruments and present the final choice to your son as his new wood clarinet. Your son is going to be excited about the new wood clarinet no matter how it ends up in his hands. The problem is that if he goes (inexperienced) and tries the instruments, his excitement can, and will, make him overlook some things that a professional player (with nothing to gain but $30) would notice immediately. That brings up the point to try and get an honest professional with integrity. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Truth is...your son, no matter how much he thinks otherwise, is not going to know what to look for. Simply because it is a step up (an important event in a clarinet player's career...I remember mine) his excitement can and will get the best of him. That is not even considering that he does not have the experience to make the best choice.
In Summary
· Find a/some used Buffet E-11s or R-13s.
· Have a professional play test it/them for $20 or $30 before buying.
· Tell the professional that if the keys and wood are good, you'd rather go for cheaper in cost and have a repad/recork done than more expensive and find out later. (Check the cost of a repad first .)
I did not realize my Noblet was stuffy until I eventually got my Buffet R13. I was just so excited to get that wood clarinet. It ended up okay in the end, but I can tell you that at the moment I got the Noblet, I did not know any better—neither will your son. I also thought my Buffet R13 Prestige clarinets were a great investment for me since I was going to play clarinet for a career. Nearly $3000 for each of my Bb and A clarinets. Another $1200 mistake each for me. The difference was NOT worth the price difference. Just some experience advice for you.
One last thing as I read over my post and think about it: No matter what, some kid is going to have a new R13 "Prestige" or "Elite", etc. and no matter what, at some point your son's clarinet "will not compare". All the more reason for your son to practice and kick their butt in chair placement or auditions, etc. He may not even say anything to you, but he will to himself when he sits next to them.
Have him read this below:
I do not even play on my R13 Prestige anymore! I use a used regular R13 ($1200 price difference when I bought the Prestige) and you can hear me at http://www.musix4me.com/html/body_music.html. I'm no Jon Manasse, but hopefully you can hear that I play well enough to know.
I just played a tour where the first clarinet player from the band I am striving for came along. What a wonderful sound and wonderful playing. He plays on a very, VERY used, old Buffet that appears to have been pinned at least a couple times from cracks. What an amazing player.
The step up to wood is important and there is a bit of learning on how to control the new resistance when you play it. Save up your money as you can and when you are about to head to college, try and get an R13 or equivalent (used).
Good Luck and have your mom post back how you fare.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 19:41
robert moody said: Quote:
>>>"I might offer another bit of advice: Find an older (experienced, not some college newbie) clarinet instructor (preferably one that currently performs on clarinet) and offer to pay them $30 to play test some instruments and present the final choice to your son as his new wood clarinet. Your son is going to be excited about the new wood clarinet no matter how it ends up in his hands. The problem is that if he goes (inexperienced) and tries the instruments, his excitement can, and will, make him overlook some things that a professional player (with nothing to gain but $30) would notice immediately. That brings up the point to try and get an honest professional with integrity." [end quote]
*however, what works for one person might not work for another person. That's why he needs to try them himself, but should have his teacher come along. the teacher can help find a good instrument that works for your son.
I must say that, yes, exitement got the better of me. I love my current clarinet, but I bought it in haste and did not realize the chip on the bottom of the upper section; or that the supposedly "new" clarinet had dark brown, flat cork (new cork should be light and "puffy") and the pads were a bit brown (which would indicate that the clarinet had been played, as new pads should be white!)- so beware! but still, I don't think you should just grab a pro to play clarinets to help you choose. have this pro or the teacher come and help your son play and choose.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-02-20 23:32
Quote:
*however, what works for one person might not work for another person. That's why he needs to try them himself, but should have his teacher come along. the teacher can help find a good instrument that works for your son.
If this kid is going into highschool...
Quote:
...will be going to high school next year.
...and this is his first wood clarinet...
Quote:
...he needed to upgrade his instrument from plastic to wood. This seemed reasonable to me; since he has played for 4 years....
...then as ideal as your "take a teacher along" idea is, it is overkill in this case. The kid is not to the point of appreciating the find nuances of different professional clarinets, let alone the used mid-range he will most likely end up with....Quote:
Which due to some recent changes in my health situation is extremely taxing to my finances. If he needs a wood clarinet, I will find a way for him to get one.
It does not sound like he has private lessons or she would have mentioned them or even just gone to them from the beginning. I think the best thing for this lady in her position is to find a reliable clarinetist (maybe a college professor) and offer them $30 or so to check out some clarinets to make sure she gets a good product.
Thanks for your opinion though. We would not want to annul an ethusiastic voice such as yours.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 23:48
response to previous post by Robert Moody:
"My son's teacher from school sent home a note saying he needed to upgrade his instrument from plastic to wood."
^ maybe not a private teacher, but a teacher nonetheless. I know that had I asked my band director to come along with me on my search for a wooden clarinet, as a freshman in highschool, he would have gladly accompanied me. As would my private lessons teacher.
why would it be overkill to bring a teacher, if you suggest paying to bring a pro along? isn't it generally the same idea? except in this case, the boy would know his teacher, as opposed to it being some stranger...
I think you should give this kid a little more credit. He's not a child, it sounds like he's going to be at least 14 or 15, since he's going into highschool. I know that when I bought my first wooden clarinet, sure I didn't know everything, but I wouldn't say I was completely ignorant to the difference between clarinet brands or styles, etc.
but if her son does not have a private lessons teacher and this teacher who recommended he buy a new clarinet is not willing to, or well-informed enough to go with them, then fine, pay a pro. great idea.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-02-21 11:42
I'm overtly suspicious of teachers pushing students to a particular retail outlet.
To find out if this is a legitimate suggestion for the STUDENT, see if the teacher will support your purchase of a similar clarinet from an online retailer.
(There are several of repute, that offer a trial period and prices far below the Manufacturer's suggested retail price).
**********
My suggestion would be to consider quality alternatives, including the Ridenour TR147; which is made of hard rubber, built to similar specifications as the top LeBlanc Concerto model and is available new for less than $750 USD.
Furthermore, most kids that quit the instrument do so in the Spring.
This presents a chance to purchase a top instrument at a fraction of new cost.
I would not recommend spending more than $1600 USD for a NEW R13.
Secondhand R13s are available (in playing condition) for less than $1000.
Keep in mind that your Son is in his early teens, and his focus may shift...
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 13:14
My friend bought a used R-13 A clarinet on WoodwindBrasswind.com for $1000 (this included the double case he needed). A clarinets tend to cost more (since they are made of more wood), so I'm guessing that if you were to buy a used Bb R-13 clarinet, it'd be less- around the area of $900 or even $800. And WWBW.com has good clarinets. My friend's A is quite good for a used clar. Check it out.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-02-21 14:40
Quote:
I'm overtly suspicious of teachers pushing students to a particular retail outlet.
To find out if this is a legitimate suggestion for the STUDENT, see if the teacher will support your purchase of a similar clarinet from an online retailer.
(There are several of repute, that offer a trial period and prices far below the Manufacturer's suggested retail price).
This is very true! My highschool teacher, and I loved the guy for what he did for me musically, was "asked to leave" for exactly that! He was in cahoots with a local music store in Virginia Beach, Virginia getting a percentage of instruments sold that were purchased by our band.
So that is a very good point, Botch. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: eskil
Date: 2005-06-19 18:15
Hey, mwpalace!
I don't know if you've gone and bought anything for your son yet, but my own humble advice is that your son probably doesn't _need_ another clarinet. Very few clarinet players do need anything more expensive than a beginner's plastic clarinet - many of those plastic clarinets play about as well as the top-of-the-line clarinets of the nineteenfifties, and those clarinets were good enough for Benny Goodman and the likes. (Okay, okay, I can feel a storm of angry mail coming on now, but honestly, folks, you know I'm right. I emphasized "need", didn't I? And I said "many...play about as well", not "all... play exactly as well"!)
However, if you still want to upgrade, go ahead and do so. It is very difficult to give advice, though, because it all depends what would inspire your son to play more. Basically, he wants something better, but what is this "better" to him? Is it something brand new? Then it's no use buying him a second-hand instrument, no matter how good it is. Is it "the right brand"? What brand would that be? It won't do much good buying him a Yamaha if what he wants is a Buffet, because he'll feel disappointed. And what you really want to do here, I guess, is to make him happy, which is what most parents want for their kids to be.
I would say the reed is the most important part of a clarinet. Spend the most money there, that's where most of the sound comes from, and most people can very clearly hear the difference in sound between different individual reeds, not just different makes or brands. The reeds in a box of ten will differ in strength slightly, and when people say that most of the reeds in a box were bad, they really mean that they could feel the difference in strength very clearly. And that they are so dependant on the exact right strength that they couldn't play on the ones that were a little too stiff for them. They just need to practice more to get their lip strength up, or buy a box of softer reeds.
The mouthpiece is the second most important part of the clarinet, many people (but not all) can hear the difference in sound between different mouthpieces. And all clarinet players can feel the difference clearly. A mouthpiece that doesn't suit you can ruin your day totally, in a way the clarinet itself never can. Buy a mouthpiece your son likes, up to about the cost of a new Vandoren mouthpiece. If he can't find one he likes in that price range, take him out of clarinet school and buy him drums instead.
The clarinet itself, just buy whatever pleases you and is in Bb (yes, you guessed right, Bb is standard clarinet tuning). All clarinets are black stick-like objects, and they all play a little different, but very few of them are genuinely bad. The expensive ones play only very little better than the cheap ones, most people can not hear much difference between them, not even clarinet players, even if they pretend they can. The clarinet itself is not as important as the reed and the mouthpiece! Save money here, if you feel you need to save money. The good news is, you can save a lot here, without much difference in sound. If you settle for a second-hand clarinet, never pay more than half the price of a new one, consider it a decent buy if you pay around one third of the price of a new one, and consider it a bargain if you can get it for less than one fourth of the price of a new one. Most sellers will want to have a lot more, but what they want and what they can get are two very different things. Don't argue with them, just look for the ones that have resigned and have lowered their price by themselves. If you buy a new clarinet in a shop, haggle! You should be able to get at least ten percent off the price by just asking for it, and if you are really good at haggling and are buying a very expensive clarinet, you might get fifteen or twenty percent off the price. Maybe even forty percent, but that's only if the shop has been sitting on that clarinet for very long (like five years) and they need the cash badly.
The ligature (the thingy that holds the reed to the mouthpiece) is not that important, just buy the cheapest possible that will keep the reed from falling off. People who talk about how important the ligature is, in all likelyhood hasn't understood that the ligature should only be tightened ever so little, actually barely tightened at all. If they really can hear the difference between different ligatures, they have overtightened them. Consequently, they are people who know very little about clarinet playing, and you can ignore their opinions altogether.
And remember that your son doesn't really need a new clarinet.
Good luck, and hope your health situation isn't too bad (you mentioned that it wasn't perfect)!
Eskil,
proud owner of a plastic Yamaha 26, a Yamaha CX, a Selmer Series 10, a Selmer Series 10S, a Leblanc Dynamic, a Strasser and a Selmer Centertone, and even if I like all of them, I can't say I really really really need any of them. Don't ask me about mouthpieces and ligatures.
PS. If you already bought a clarinet, just ignore my post. You did a good buy, whatever you bought, because you showed your son that you care about him a lot, who bought him something he didn't need just to make him happy.
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Author: Kelly Riccio-Chapman
Date: 2005-06-19 19:34
I played an E11 for a short period of time in high school and LOVED it for what it was. It wasn't a professional instrument by any means, but for the purpose it served (which seems to be the same purpose your son would need it for) it was great. I marched with it, which I realllllly shouldn't have, but it came out OK. I would still keep his plastic instrument, if it's in good playing condition, for marching though.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-19 19:49
The E-11 is a good instrument, but the keywork is not "fullsized". Your local store will even with a discount charge you a lot as any store's discount price for them buying 5 instruments doesn't compare to a large wholesaler like the woodwind brasswind's 200 instrument cost when they purchase from the manufacturer.
And 200 is probably an understatement as they have over $100 Million in inventory (fmr head of customer service told me that).
Don't get another plastic instrument (or a synthetic one for that matter!!!) - I don't like them as far as I can throw em. That includes all the ones mentioned in this article.
The Buffet E-12 has not been mentioned yet and they are very good and full sized keywork similar to the R-13. New they cost around $1000 and used you can probably get one for about $600. That is a great way to go unless your son eventually majors in music which at that time he can work for a higher model. The E-12 won't hold him back in high school and won't cost you a bundle either.
Having a private Clarinet teacher even for a brief time can help you a lot to decide what is a good way to go, and also match a mouthpiece with reed, etc.
If I were to "tell you what to get", it would be to get a
Fobes - Nova Clarinet Mouthpiece
Grand Concert #3 Reeds Thick Blank (assuming that is a good strength for him)
Vandoren Optimum Ligature
Buffet E-12 Clarinet
and a Gem Clarinet Swab to clean the thing out with.
Suggested supplier is www.wwbw.com which is 800-348-5003
David Blumberg (Clarinet Clinician Rico Reed Corporation)
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-19 21:36
I've not heard that about the E11 key work before, does that mean it's for smaller hands, or it doesn't have the regular keys?
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-06-19 21:43
This was a post from a long time ago: 2005-02-20
I think the parent has already bought the clarinet by now.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-19 23:37
No, and it isn't much of a difference but I sure notice it.
It's in the bottom right hand keys that I notice it the most - different spread.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-06-20 02:49
I'd emphasize getting help in selecting a clarinet. I bought my Buffet from a moderate-sized shop in Sacramento, California. They did not have the Full Boehm model I wantede (it has extra keys that offer different fingering options that CAN simplify hard music). They ordered it, and it came pitched for use in European orchestras.
At the time, I was doing "virtuoso studies" with a private teacher, and my plastic student clarinet was incapable of following my finger-lifts. It was holding me back. The new Buffet was wonderfully light and quick; my teacher got me onto a decent mouthpiece, and I was pretty happy with the horn.
LATER, I found out that it's hard to make it play in-tune because its tuned for a higher standard pitch that we use in the USA. I have to make a compromise on almost every note between producing my sweetest sound and playing in tune.
NEXT TIME, I'll audition a whole bunch of instruments; and I'll go shopping with a much better idea of what to look for.
So, get some coaching in picking our a new or used instrument. It will not hurt. In fact, if your consultant would work with your son --handing him the instrument with comments: "can you feel/hear this? ..." , it could be a great and valuable experience for him.
Good luck. HECK, most of have a whole quiver of instruments and an eagle eye out for the next one!
Bob Phillips
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-06-20 05:44
e11's are pitched at a442 ; they are not a good choice for an advancing student; most high school (and very good middle school) students will be very sharp on an e11
i think e12's also have the short barrel , putting them at a442 also. at least the only e12 i've played did - it had a 64.5mm barrel just like the e11's do. i'd put a 66mm barrel on it if i bought an e12.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: D
Date: 2005-06-20 21:24
Mmmm. that is a useful photo, I can actually see what they were refering too, normally I am none the wiser even with illustraions. People are going to think I am even odder than they already did now,....I will be continually peering at their clarinets while they try and play.
Thanks Dave.
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