 The Ethnic Clarinet
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2002-07-03 04:03
Is this clarinet ever featured in klezmer music (as it is in Greek music)? Who on this board plays one semi-regularly? I'm not interested in buying one; I'm just curious, trying to jump-start some discussion.
Where a G clar is called for (say, in Balkan music), can you fake it with an Eb alto? I've heard some recordigs with a G and it seems to me you could. Who on this board plays alto clar semi-regularly for klez or Balkan?
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Author: Christoffer
Date: 2002-07-04 20:29
I have never seen any of those used for klezmer. My teacher told me that he once had one, but I guess he mainly had it for playing turkish music. It was one of those cheap metal things, and he found it rather difficult to stretch the fingers far enough. He says that it was almost a relief to him when it was stolen - !
He plays basset horn as well. It might not be a "G clarinet fake", but it sounds great.
Actually, I have rarely (if ever) heard the G clar. in greek music. I thought it was primarily a turkish thing?
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Author: Seamus Kirkpatrick
Date: 2002-07-04 23:27
Greek and turkish thing as far as I know.
I just got a low G albert system instrument (Amati, brand new, ok instrument, when I've really sussed it out I'll post a review)and am in the process of learning how to play it. The sound is radically different from the Bb boehm system buffet that I have, and I have read of Giora Fiedman playing a Boehm system G on a recording (which I haven't heard).
It is definitely the instrument for Turkish and Romanian up through the Balkans type music, but I do find that the Bb is the right tone for klezmer.
Having said that though, if anyone has an albert system Bb that they would like to sell to me please get in contact beacuse I'm convinced that would be THE right sound. I'm in Brisbane Australia and unusual instruments are a bit thin on the ground...
The albert system is more difficult to play on in some keys, but it just sounds right, so I don't think there's a question of tone verses inconvenience to be had.
cheers
Seamus
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2002-07-05 17:30
Seamus, here is a web site I discovered that has several Albert Bb's for sale. I do not know of their reputation or their ability to produce what you want for shipment, but it is a place to look.
http://www.trocadero.com/cgi-bin/search1.cgi
Lots of interesting goodies there. Good luck.
Bob A
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-11 03:10
Seamus, there actually isn't that much G clarinet stuff used in the Balkans. It's pretty much only in Greece and Turkey. In Bulgaria and Macedonia, it's strictly Boehm system stuff, and Full-Boehm in particular in Bulgaria. As far as Albania, it depends on what kind of player you're talking about...village guys play Albert (Bb or C) and state-trained guys play Boehm. I know one Albanian guy who built his own metal C Boehm! In Romania, I've not noticed much for actual clarinet stuff. There they use a lot of tarogot, which is kind of like a wooden soprano sax and sounds like a clarinet plus an oboe plus a soprano sax. Serbians play clarinet, but I haven't really gone into Serbian music the way I have into Bulgarian... The Roma (gypsies) use Boehm (or Full-Boehm) as far as I've seen, but if anyone has any other experience there...speak up!
Learning to play the G is a pain in the BUTT. I have long fingers...and it can hurt stretching far enough to get the holes covered. It helps when you play with other people...you can have a little bit of anonymity and cover-up space! 
Christoffer, there is quite a bit of G clarinet in Greek music...despite the usual animosity between the two governments, they share a rather lot of musical stuff...
For Klezmer, the Albert (IMHO) is the best...I don't really play Klezmer, but there's just something about the hejaz mode (phrygish to you klez-folk I think...) on an Albert horn that really sounds GREAT!!!
Katrina
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Author: Seamus Kirkpatrick
Date: 2002-07-12 03:47
I more meant that for the Eastern European stuff it sounds really cool (as opposed to appropriate). Does that distinction make sense?
I've had a play with a metal G same as what they sell at Lark In The Morning and it did really hurt. Mostly I think because the thumbrest was so low that it just meant the right hand copped a severe beating in terms of stretching and fatigue. However the Amati that I bought is actually playable and I really think that it's worth trying out. I'br actually removed the adjustable part of the thumbrest so I'm just resting on the metal pole looking thing that's left, and having the thumb nearly align with the first finger has improved things dramatically.
The biggest head mess I'm getting is from it being an albert system instrument. I'm finding some of the Eastern European modes sit nicely though, much like with klezmer on a C albert system.
I read too, that Bulgarians made the switch to boehm system with the arrival of players like Ivo Papasov (if that's spelt right) but prior to that were albert system. Is that true?
I was wondering too Katrina, what's your background because you know lots... (I'm learning frantically)
cheers
Seamus
www.treeskin.com
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2002-07-12 18:01
How close is the sound between a G clarinet and an Eb alto clarinet?
Seems like Eb alto clar's should be used more in both klezmer and balkan (indeed, if they're used at all), than they are.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-15 16:29
Frankly, Seamus, I don't know when the Boehm got into Bulgaria. I have a FEELING that it was due to the heavily state-sponsored cultural activities. In Bulgaria, the state folk music groups didn't use clarinet, though...so I may be way off base there. Papasov is a Turkish gypsy, so that may account for his using the Full Boehm. The gypsies really go their own way and do things the way they want to. The interesting thing is that non-Gypsy Bulgarian clarinetists now follow Papasov's lead and use them and play just the way he does/did (only not QUITE as good...lol).
I have only played Turkish music on my Turkish G. I got it from a guy in Detroit, Michigan. I've heard that the ones at Lark in the Morning can be inconsistent, but I know someone who bought one there and it is the same make as mine. It seems ok. Mine has an adjustable thumb rest but I haven't quite decided where I like it best yet.
Steve, I'm still not quite able to answer your original question, but I do know one guy in San Francisco who does play alto occasionally with a variety of groups. He plays everything from Klezmer to Balkan, so I imagine he must use it in both? In terms of tone quality, it's been so long since I HEARD an alto clarinet that I really really really can't remember what they sound like!
Also, Seamus, my background is almost entirely classical. I trained at Oberlin Conservatory and Northwestern University. While working on the Masters at NU, I realized I didn't want to play classical for a living, because of all the audition pressure. I never play well in audition situations. So I quit playing for three years and then fell in with this international folkdance band, and became completely passionate about Balkan stuff. I now play with the Ethnic Dance Theatre here in Minneapolis, and have my own international band too. Most of the stuff I know about Balkan music I've picked up through lots and lots of listening. There is a really good book on Bulgarian music out there, by Tim Rice, called "May it Fill Your Soul." Last summer I was fortunate enough to travel to Bulgaria and study with a village clarinetist outside of Plovdiv. Another good place, particularly in the U.S. (sorry Seamus) is the East European Folklife Center. Their website is at http://www.eefc.org They sponsor two week-long music and dance camps every year, and they're really great! Their email listserv is also a fabulous source of info. You can join on at their website.
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-29 00:56
Just found out a little bit of info on when the Boehm clarinet may have reached Bulgaria. I was just at Balkan Camp in Maryland, and we had a clarinet class with Mark Levy (of the Univ. of Oregon) on Bulgarian clarinet. He taught a couple of tunes from the repertoire of Georgi Koev, a folk clarinetist in the mid 20th century. Apparently, Koev used an A Albert system for his playing. The reason he used A was because he played with gudulka players a lot, and those darn stringed instruments always like the key of A. I asked Mark about when the Boehm system reached Bulgaria, and he wasn't exactly sure, but figured it was around the 1960's-1970s. That was about the time that "wedding band" music began to develop, but I don't know whether this chicken or this egg came first.
Katrina
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2002-07-29 04:54
One of these years, I'll get back to Ramblewood for Balkan Camp. Went only once, in '98, was in "over my head". I had just started playing again as an adult and wasn't even up to the technical demands of the instrument, let alone I'd never played by ear and had heard little of the repertoire. I'm still out of my league, even though I've gotten much better all around.
To get the most out of Balkan Camp requires exceptional ear-playing abilities, do you not agree, Kat?
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-30 22:02
Well, Steve, playing by ear takes time. When I first started playing by ear (only about 3-4 years ago), I could only mimic a small section of the tune, let alone remember it. I'm up to the point where I can usually (with enough repetition) get most of a tune in one lesson. Ornaments are another story. It's a lot easier to hear just the tune and not the ornaments right now for me. I generally feel that the most difficult thing is to MEMORIZE by ear.
I don't think one needs EXCEPTIONAL ear-playing abilities to get something out of Balkan Camp, because each year these abilities grow and expand. Each year your needs are different, so you can always get the most that you need.
The Bulgarian class with Mark was excellent, and he provided his transcriptions of the tunes, which helped. The OTHER clarinet guy, Goce Dimovski (from Macedonia) was unbelievable. His playing was loads above anything I've heard recently, and he was sooooo musically creative. As far as I'm concerned, he can do anything. His classes were much harder, though!
Come back to Balkan Camp, Steve!
Katrina
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Author: Christoffer
Date: 2002-07-31 12:28
This Balkan camp thing ... does somebody know about such things going on over here in Europe??
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Author: Kat
Date: 2002-07-31 19:40
There is a great camp in Bulgaria called Balkanfolk. Their website is http://www.balkanfolk.com
There is also a seminar on Rom (Gypsy) music in Yugoslavia. It's called the Amala School (or something). I don't know the URL for it, but it does have a website.
Chritoffer, I suggest you go to the EEFC website and join the listserv where you can ask all kinds of questions like this. Their URL is: http://www.eefc.org
Katrina
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-06-18 08:26
www.cite-musique.fr/francais/info_doc/index.htm
a site where you can look for balkan stages
It's a french site, the courses concentrate on repertoire and playing together. I didn't find any course or weekend yet for instrumental courses.
the balkanfolk thing is only for traditional instruments i believe
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-06-18 11:29
Stewart Mennin in Albuquerque plays both Klezmer on b-flat Albert and Balkan on G Albert. He commented in a previous thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=2&i=94&t=90#reply_94
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-07-08 12:45
which reeds do you use on this turkish instrument ?
Mine came with a "guchi ? " Nice france #1 reed that makes the horn sound beautifully in the lower register
Putting on a 1,5 vandoren makes the instrument worth nothing ?
What are other people using out there ?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-07-08 20:33
Well, buedsma, it all depends on your mouthpiece. I use my Vandoren 5JB on my Turkish horn, for the most part, and with that I use Rico 2's...
Katrina
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-07-09 18:13
well, my clarinet comes in only two pieces , the mouthpiece is apperently fixed with some glue.
The tone is interesting from lowest throat A, the jump a open to si closed is oke with a little practice but the sound from that point on is awfull .The only solutin is a very soft reed.
Did buy it on ebay ( look for clarinet sol albert ) and you'll find another one ( ebay/x is the seller )
Was wondering if your instruments are from another make etc
Can send pictures if anyone can help me out . Otherwise i'll have to buy a better one in the future or try to get the mouthpiece out to replace it with another one
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-07-10 16:27
Hmmm...I've never heard of a mp being glued onto the horn. My Turkish G horn is a metal one, made by RKOR (or something like that...). And it has four separate parts, barrel, two joints, and a screw-on bell. Although the joints don't hold so well right now...I have to use electrical tape to keep the thing together!
I'd eventually like a wooden one. I played Stewart Mennin's Orsi G horn last summer at Balkan Camp, and it is certainly many times easier for me to hold and finger on.
Katrina
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-07-25 09:09
i managed to get the mp out
It was really stuck ( glued )
Anyway i did visit a turkish music shop
that had the same type of clarinet and yes,
i managed to split my clarinet into 4 pieces + mouthpiece.
The only question left : only when playing with very soft reeds without too much pressure i manage to get a Eb with forked fingering
The lowest Bb forked works oke , regardless of mouthpiece and reed type. But the softer reeds always play better.
The sound they recorded on larkinam gives a good idea about the ugliness of nearly all notes played with the register key.
The low notes sound very beautifull.
I also had to add some corks underneath some keys to avoid the metallic noise.
Other expierences about mp's , reeds , correct tuning and sound quality below and above throat A ??
When i listen to turkish clarinet , they apperently don't go higher then throat A most of the time , probably because of the difficult A-B jump and the fact that soft reeds make this even more difficult .
Other opinions ? Seems like i'm the only turkish clarinet owner in Belgium. Even the turkish shop owner knew less about the instrument then i did.
By the way : FRENCH fries is in fact the national belgian food. You can buy it with mayonaise or ketchup at every corner. Never understood why americans call it french fries. Probably one of the only well-known countries because of "april in paris" , the eifel tower , or was it something else :-) ??
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-07-25 14:23
well, on their website the G instrument isn't available
I have their reseller pricelist at home. ( starting up a woodwind shop at the moment, hence my interest in different types and makes of clarinets )A lot of the orsi instruments can be made on demand. In case you are interested , let me know .
Also curious about retail prices over there
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2003-07-27 10:06
when you look at the picture on the cd astrakan cafe ( anouar brahem )
you'll notice that he playes a metal g - clarinet from a complately different make then the ones from karkinthemorning or the ones i sell now from rekor music - turkye.
Anyone an idea where that one comes from ? Seems a lot more solid then the cheap stuff we all seem to "play"
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