 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-11 18:20
I have been trying in vain to find an "acceptable" clarinet...one with good intonation, responsive, even scale, etc. I've been reading a lot of postings and decided to go to WW & BW in NYC. The people were very friendly but "quite busy". In needing to make changes in instruments or mpc's, I had to wait until they took care of other customers up front. My personally set allotted time was up and I left frustrated.
I now have 3 demo units in my home..An E11, a Normandy 4 and a Vito VSP 7820. I thought this might be a slightly better way since I would have 2 weeks to thoroughly check out the instruments. The E11 leaks air and the throat tones are 20 points high. The Vito open "G" was right on but all the other notes on the lower tone section were averaging 20 points low...especially the throat tones. The Normandy 4 had a pretty good scale, even the throat tones were almost dead on. But the voicing sounded kind of dull or stuffy. Upon disassembling the instrument, I carefully inspected the 2 body sections and the barrel. The body sections were pretty smooth and glossy but the barrell!!! It looked so bad...like someone had almost taken a file and ruffed it up.
Anyway, I'm looking for comments as to how to obtain an acceptable instrument without spending all day at a music store or sending clarinets back and forth for months until a good one is located.
Since I'm a hobbyist and play for my own personal pleasure, there HAS TO BE a better way to go about doing this!! My thoughts now are to buy a used instrument from a reputable repairperson who can attest to scale, evenness of sound projections, and responsiveness. Another idea I have is to buy a hopefully quality instrument body off of ebay, and then have it completely rebuilt by someone who really know what they are doing and then have it tuned correctly.
My patience has run out. I don't want to spend all day testing instruments while looking at a scale meter and I certainly don't intend to order any more to test out at home. A person should not have to buy a new instrument and then take it to a repairperson and have it "corrected". I am totally disgusted with what seems to be a majority of manufacturers who can't seem to get their act together and turn out consistently good instruments (IMO).
I appologize for the long posting. I have been carefully and patiently doing "my homework" in trying to do what shoud be a rather simple operation.
Your helpful suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-11 19:08
"Another idea I have is to buy a hopefully quality instrument body off of ebay, and then have it completely rebuilt by someone who really know what they are doing and then have it tuned correctly."
Dan, you are at the mercy of many low minded folk if just stumble your way onto eBay. IMHO I think, to buy sensibly, you should have a "mentor." It worked for me. I have "bought" three clarinets off eBay, a Bb, an alto ("Why", cried everybody) and a bass. The Bb and the Bb-Bass were obtained with the assistance and advice of Dave Spiegelthal, and sent to him for repair, where needed, and refurbishing. He is a most reliable repairman and I trust him to send me back an instrument that I can play, enjoy and take pride in. I also play for my own amusement (unfortunately) but hope to find a group who can put up with me.
Dave also repairs and sells other "older brand" clarinets. Check out our Sneezy"classifieds" and if you don't find anything with Dave, there are others. I understand Brenda would be willing to find you a "good" instrument once she knows what you desire.
Luck in the search.
Bob A
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-11-11 19:08
Dan, you've run up against one of the great frustrations of buying instruments. From your selections, it would seem that you are ready to spend in the neighborhood of $750 for a new clarinet. That puts you below pro quality horns, so you are dealing with both instrument limitations as well as some make-ready issues. Here's my suggestion.
I would take that money and buy a quality instrument used from one of the sneezy sponsors that know clarinets, can properly evaluate them, and won't deliver it to you until it is right. In some, but not all, cases, you give up having bright shiney keys and an unscuffed case. In exchange you get a horn that will play rings around those you have considered and will probably have enough money left over for one of the best custom-made mouthpieces you can imagine.
If you are interested and don't know who the sponsors are that sell these instruments, drop me an email and I'll fill you in. And no . . . I'm not one of them.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-11 20:41
Gee Dan,
I'm involved with music in other ways, but playing-wise, I too, am a "hobbyist" and play for my own personal pleasure. I also invest the necessary time to locate a good instrument for myself whenever I want one, or for friends, as I determine to help them do so.
Now you have some good advise from Bob and Fred.
But as I read your posting, I got the feeling that, apparently, you either don't want a good instrument bad enough to work at getting it, like others who plays the clarinet do, or you are just whinning to blow off a temper tantrum.
As per what you say in that posting, you are apparently well versed and old enough to know the drill, now go out there and do it or don't do it, but don't whine about it or tell about your self-imposed time limits as if you were a spoiled child.
I know prissy young girls (as opposed to other girls I know who aren't prissy) who have suffered it out and got it done. If they can do it, there's no reason why you can't. That is, if you want a good instrument bad enough.
There are those who get other people to find them a good instrument without being present at the choosing, and there are those who have been very happy with the instruments others have picked out for them. But it doesn't always work out that way.
And, frankly, setting yourself an unreasonable time limit to find a good instrument and throwing a temper tantrum because the sales-person did not take exclusive care of you doesn't say much for you or your desire for a good instrument.
How long does it take to find a good instrument? If anyone could tell you ahead of time, they'd be telling you a lie. Every time I think I've bought "the" instrument, time passes and another one shows up. Sometimes as good as the last one, sometimes better. Then I find myself buying another one. So sometimes it can take years, not hours or days.
Did you bother asking the salesperson when would be a less busy time you might be able to return and get more personalized and attentive help?
So quit whinning, work at it to get it done and expect it to be a time consuming project.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-11 21:16
Peter, I don't know who you are, but you "seem" to know me and boy are you off the mark!!! I consider what you have written as verbal abuse and will ask you to NEVER respond again to any posting I may do in the future. How dare you speak to me in such a manner!!! I hope Mark is aware of your response. I come to this web-site for help...and your verbal abuse in definitely not helping. Thank you and good-bye.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2001-11-11 21:27
Dan: Are you using the stock mouthpiece or your own "good" mouthpiece? If it's the stock mouthpiece, this could be part of the problem.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-11 21:54
Bill, I was using a Mitchell Lurie crystal mp, Legere #2 reed, with a Rovner "light"ligature. This was the set up at home. At the store, I unfortunately used a Vandoren 5RV Lyre and a "Dark" Rovner ligature along with my own reed so that may have been part of the problem I had there. Thank you for your input.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-11 21:59
Dan, consider yourself lucky. Job (in the Bible) had THREE friends like Peter. You got off easy.
Bob A
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Author: GBK
Date: 2001-11-11 22:01
Dan...I feel your pain, but may have a suggestion. I have bought many horns in my time from various sources (I own 9 R-13's) and have always been treated well at Fred Weiner's. I assume since you have the same IP server as me, you must be in the NYC/ Long Island area. Call Fred or Mark over at Weiner's music and make an appointment to try out a number of horns. If you know which ones you want to try, Mark will have a number of them set up and ready to go for you. If you want to use my name as a reference, email me off line....GBK
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-11 23:18
To Bob and GBK, thanks for the advice. It is much appreciated. Dan
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Author: ron b
Date: 2001-11-11 23:20
I can't overlook this...
We don't often get petty around here so a response like Peter's really surprises me. I hope we can just chalk it off to his having had a bad day. Remember, Peter, if you're still with us, even You had to start somewhere.
Remember?
( Bob A - Peter sounds to me more like Job's wife than the three 'buddies' ).
- ron b -
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-11-12 01:17
If there is a lesson to be learned in the exchange above, it is one about judging another person's motives. A couple of threads back, someone was criticized for playing their teacher's horn without permission. That is, "I don't approve of what you did." We all have a right to express our approval or disapproval of actions, though sometimes we offer our opinion without knowing all the circumstances. When it goes to "You did this because . . . ", either the person needs to be God or an infallible mind-reader (oxymoron), because we presume to know their internal motivation. We would all do well to leave the judging of motives to one that truly knows the heart.
And for those not immersed in the book of Job, the gist of the wife's comments was: "Why don't you just curse God . . . and die."
Sweet woman . . .
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-12 01:18
Sorry, it wasn't a bad day. I spend lots of time helping out people here I consider need bonafide help, and I spend lots of time physically taking people around to help them purchase instruments they may otherwise not be able to purchase on their own.
What I understand from the way his post is written is that he knows the drill, but is too good to go to one or more places and invest the necessary time doing what needs to be done to find a good instrument.
Failing that, he is unwilling to get involved in a mail order relationship with a catalog company (for which I don't blame him in the least, I wouldn't either.)
If he presented his problem as lack of knowledge or experience in the endevour, I might feel differently, but read his post. Especially the part about how his patience has run out.
Unfortunately, this is the way most clarinets are purchased and claiming this kind of impatience while asking for the easy way out is not the best way to get sympathy from me.
I know I'm intolerant and usually not very diplomatic in what I have to say, and I do apologize profusely for that part of it. But please, give me a break on the other.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-11-12 01:56
Recently I found Ridenour TR147 clarinet sold through Brook Mays.
Maybe worth a trial. It costs just below 600$ with a case. New.
http://www.brookmays.com/
FYI: Tom Ridenour designed Vitto when he belonged to Leblanc. He now works independently and makes TR147 by himself, which may be the reason of its affordable price.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-12 02:52
Peter, you said, in part, "I know I'm intolerant and usually not very diplomatic in at I have to say," And then you "apologize profusely". If you are serious, do what I did...Go to "search," , look for all your own postings in the past six months and read just how arrogant and pontifical you come over. I don't know you and you may be a master clarinetist, but that is no excuse for such disregard of other people. Please don't think of this as a "flame", just a vision of "Christmas Past" and lighten up on the troops. OK?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2001-11-12 04:53
There is an old cliche, "Marry in haste, repent at leisure." I suspect, in most cases, it applies equally well to buying a clarinet. I think, whatever you wind up with, Dan, you will be happier with it if you don't rush into the purchase. I can sympathize with your reluctance to spend several hours in a store trying out one instrument after another. I know from personal experience that fatigue sets in fairly quickly and my interest and decision making ability decline. I don't know the WW&BW store in New York but, if it's convenient to get to and well-stocked, you have a good source to work with. Rather than one long trip, perhaps you should consider several shorter ones spread over the course of a month or so. Initially, you might focus on identifying a brand and model you prefer for its general characteristics. Then, focus on finding the best instrument of that model in stock.
Since you are apparently in New York, let me second GBK's recommendation of Fred Weiner. He is very knowledgable about clarinets and might be able to shorten your search time by steering you in the right direction. Also, I have found his prices to be quite competitive with WW&BW and he has alot of clarinets both new and used in stock. In phone conversations, I have found some of his employees to be a little on the impatient/rude side, but, whenever I have talked to Mr. Weiner, himself, I have always found him to be a pleasant helpful gentleman -- thoroughly professional.
From the instruments you have been looking at, it sounds to me like you are thinking of spending $700 - $800 for a clarinet that you hope will last you a long time. If you consider the effort it takes to earn that much money (after taxes!), and the length of time you will be living with your choice, perhaps it will put in perspective the inconvenience of spending a few more hours up front to do your search right.
Enjoy the hunt!
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Joris
Date: 2001-11-12 09:19
My appologies for posting something non thread related, but
It must have been the years of marching band brainwashing, Peter
(Please DON'T take this too seriously)
Joris
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2001-11-12 15:18
C'mon Bob....at least give Peter credit for being consistent.
However, Dan, both Peter and Jack do put forth some valid points.
With few exceptions, clarinets are factory-made -- just like automobiles, washing machines, tires and computers. And clarinets, like the others, are subject to quality control -- or lack thereof.
Some makers have tried (and somewhat succeeded) in improving the consistency of the quality of their products. Others are notoriously poor. But having tried but one example of three different models is hardly representative of all that's out there (at least, I hope!).
One could stretch your argument to throw up their hands after trying but three reeds -- we all know where that will get us, huh?
Patience is a virtue in life. In music, it is a necessity.
Now, the models you mention are basically upper level beginner models, although not the basic entry level plastics. While there is no legitimate excuse for a lack of quality control at any level, the reality is often that you get what you pay for. But, regardless, you need to try more horns before writing them off completely.
It's never fun to spend further $$$ to have an instrument "corrected." Perhaps you should look at the after-market activity as 'customizing.' Just like a fine piano technician can personalize a Steinway to what a pianist desires, so does a fine clarinet tech. My instruments are very fine when picked -- they're even better after being serviced.
The only way (well, maybe not the only way) to get the clarinet manufacturers to pay more attention to your concerns is to not patronize their products. If enough follow your lead, well...who knows?
The other option is to look into handmade instruments from makers such as Guy Chadash and Stephen Fox. But, of course, $700-800 will hardly get you in the door!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2001-11-12 18:44
In my experience, many new instruments are not adjusted and tuned at the factory. They come with bad pads, chipped tone holes, too-strong springs, too-high rings, useless mouthpieces, unpolished bores, etc. Yet, with some after-purchase work, they can be made into very good playing instruments. It kind of leaves the purchaser in the dark. If you buy a premium instrument at a high price, you minimize these problems. Good luck!!
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-12 20:38
Hi Bob,
I took your suggestion and looked at the past threads, as you said to do. Actually, most of what I found was pretty tame and helpful to whomever, if (yes) somewhat arrogant at times.
The ones where I spout off, usually are in response to someone's narrow mindedness or lack of drive to just do it and get it done.
(And among the ones, like this one, where some don't agree, I also found a few where people, including yourself, more than agree with what I said.)
After spending 32 years among boys, men and women who are unstoppably driven and have mind-sets like sprung steel, there's a tendency to become intolerant of those who don't put forth a real effort to accomplish their goals, or who want to know, but not badly enough to go find it out or work at it enough to get it done. Then want others to make it easier for them.
It's almost O..K. when some such person keeps it to themselves, but gets worse when they actually state their lack of willingness to utilize their means through to a successful end, and do so indignantly, as if they were being wronged.
Imagine the nerve of the sales-person not to drop everything else in their lives (and every other client) to spend hours, on end, at this gentleman's beck and call!
To get that kind of service you need to spend much more than $700.00. Especially in a busy place like N.Y.C.
If someone says to me, "I've tried like all hell, and expended all kinds of time and trouble in searching for a good clarinet and I can't seem to find one," I can be most helpful. I'll as much as make an effort to match time for time in helping them to find one.
When someone says to me, "I set myself a time limit and blew it because the store clerk had other duties besides attending to me exclusively, and now I want you to come up with a way for me to do this that won't infringe upon my time and cause me trouble," I can't sympathize.
I may change you tire for you if you have, as little as, a broken finger, but not if you don't want to get your hands dirty.
I know, it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. I understand I am just one of those kinds, and so are the others of many other kinds.
I also think it's hilariously funny being compared to Job's friends and wife, etc., especially in such context.
Last: I'm extremely impressed with his and Jack Kissinger's tact and diplomacy, and the way they successfully stated all they said in such a nice way. I have a difficult time doing that.
I also thought your consistency comment was funny, Larry, but don't let it go to your head.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-12 20:44
I meant to include Larry's name before Jack's in the last paragraph of the preceding post, in the diplomacy, tact and niceness comment, but somehow wound up saying "his" instead.
Sorry Larry.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-12 20:46
I meant to include Larry's name before Jack's in the last paragraph of my preceding post, in the diplomacy, tact and niceness comment, but somehow wound up saying "his" instead.
Sorry Larry.
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-12 23:27
Peter, I have never met anyone as arrogant as you in my entire life. You still act as if you know exactly what went on in NYC and still persist in exclaiming you know me better than I even know myself. I still find it hard to realize how abusive a person you really are. It appears that you have absolutely no respect for another person's feelings what-so-ever. If I were a young teenager seeking advice on getting started in playing the clarinet and ran into your adivce, I would either give up the instrument or find a more nurturing web-site to help me with my problems.
This web-site is by far the best I've found for information and almost all of postings are by caring people trying in a friendly fashion to help another in their struggles. As a product of an abusive alchoholic home for 19 years, I guess I'm a little more sensitive than others. Actually your comments bring back many years of pain from childhood. But, then again, I'm sure you already knew this.
This is such a wonderful web-site. I want it to stay this way. I'm going to request that the web-master, Mark, delete this entire thread. Now I'm feeling sorry that I asked for help but am thankful to those who, in a nurturing way, helped me along.
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Author: sarah
Date: 2001-11-13 01:39
Does peter remind anyone of a certain bob that had the same general attitude?
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Author: Katfish
Date: 2001-11-13 02:16
In the words of that great philosopher Rodney King ," Can't we just get along?"
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-14 00:44
I broke the code: "Peter" and "Bottom Line" (both .mia.bellsouth.net) are the SAME person, with a split personality??? Confess Peter (or is that Bottom Line's line).(Just kidding Peter)
Bob A
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-14 01:42
I just looked at it. Bottom Line is my son Fabian. Talent Poll is a good friend who is in the music business in N.Y. and L.A. and uses my office when he is in Miami. I don't remember what Daniel's nom d'guerre is, but it will probably pop up sooner or later.
We have 15 computers on the same LAN and one DSL line feeding them all. I have five (including Music One,) Fabian has four, Daniel has two, Carole has two, and Magda has two.
That line, by the way, happens to be one of my favorites, about the chaplain. I guess the apple really didn't fall far from the tree, but I already knew that.
Years ago he had an argument with another kid while on a scout canoe trip through the Everglades. The the kid yelled at him, "Let me off! Get me over to the shore, I'm going to get off! So he did, and the kid got off, thinking Fabian would never leave him.
Well, Fabian left him, and a couple or so hours and 10 miles later, there was some kind of trouble trying to find the kid. When they came back for him they heard him yelling from a couple of miles away, which is how they found him as easily as they did!
That's my boy!
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-14 03:20
See Peter, all that band marching rubbed off on him--torqued his personality??
BobA
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-14 09:32
Any particular reason, Dan, why you did not consider a Yamaha in the price range?
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Author: -
Date: 2001-11-14 10:57
Love your work Peter. Practice and NOT complaining gets you places. If people can't stand the heat, maybe they should get out of the kitchen!
I also can't stand this biblical reference stuff. Please remember that not everyone who posts here gives a damn about religion, or if they do, maybe they don't subscribe to the same "god", if you want to call it that, figure.
Maybe a little more tack from you lot who think Peter is so harsh, as a Muslim I find your continual references to God offensive, but hey, I can stand the heat it so I will stay!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-11-14 16:38
It was said above "Imagine the nerve of the sales-person not to drop everything else in their lives (and every other client) to spend hours, on end, at this gentleman's beck and call! "
Isn't it the job or sales people to spend time to make a sale and the customer happy?
"To get that kind of service you need to spend much more than $700.00. Especially in a busy place like N.Y.C."
I would think that your money should be good anywhere and in any amount. Otherwise, following that line of logic, the best service should go to someone who purchases the Buffet Elite, Somewhat less to the buyer of the Prestige, Less to R13 buyers and heaven help the person buying the plastic horn!
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-14 18:46
Ed,
Yes, it is the job of the sales-person to do that, but during busy periods a sales-person has to attend to as many clients as require his/hers attention at one time. This means that sometimes a client can be left to his/hers own devices for any length of time, while a sales-person "juggles" the clients.
Although I've been frustrated by it, I've never taken exception to it as long as it was not that the sales-person was having his morning coffee and smoke while I waited for him/her to take care of my needs as a client.
And as far as money is concerned, yes, Ed, it does often work that way, within reasonable parameters and depending on the cost-of-living constraints of the place in question.
My niece, a lawyer in N.Y.C., pays $2,600.00 a month for an efficiency apartment (one large room split into kitchenette, living room, dining area and bedroom, with a fold-out bed) and gave up her car, because a monthly parking space in her building was another $1,800.00 per month!
Making a $700.00 purchase in N.Y.C. is no big deal. It used to cost almost that for four people to eat well at Cafe Chauveron.
In Miami, FL, it's 0.K., almost passe, but it does get you a little more attention.
While in Morganton, N.C. a $700.00 purchase is viewed as a more important event. There you can rent an entire two-floor, three-bedroom house for $400.00 per month, and live pretty darn well on $10.00 per hour.
The N.Y.C. sales-person has to sell a lot more every day than the sales-person in Morganton, N.C., in order for him/her to meet his/hers salary requirements and daily store expenses. His/her time is more limited.
Yet, they can't charge more money for an instrument than someone in North Jersey is charging (and let's not even get into the WW&BW or IM,) because then everyone will go buy in North Jersey and the N.Y.C. store owner is screwed!
So, $700.00 may be a sizable purchase in Morganton, N.C., where the sales-person can take hours to help out a client in a store that gets seven clients a day. But it's a drop in the bucket in N.Y.C., where the store gets 300 clients a day, the sales-person makes $1,500.00 a week and the store can't afford to pay more than three sales-people and pay rent at the same time.
Those sales-people also have to be cracker-jacks, or they don't last in anyone's employ.
You have to be tough to live and survive in N.Y.C., otherwise the city rolls over you like a steamroller.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-14 18:51
Bob Arney you are a likeable instigator, but an instigator nevertheless!
(Ain't it fun?)
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Author: Dan
Date: 2001-11-15 01:54
Hiroshi, thank you for the good advice. I contacted Tom Ridenour...what a wonderful gentleman. He's sending me one of his clarinets on a trial basis without even any payment from me!!! And while talking to him, he started giving me lessons on proper blowing techniques!!! A real gem of a person!!!
Thanks again. Dan
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Author: Ed
Date: 2001-11-16 03:12
The sales people at WW and BW in NYC make $1500 a week? If my math is correct, allowing 50 weeks of work that's 75,000 a year. I'll have to call Jonathan and see how I can get in on this one.
While the argument above is a lovely account of economics across the US, there are many points here not accounted for. I have known many colleagues who spend days on end trying many clarinets. Many people buying a plastic horn or even intermediate level instrument try a couple, or in some cases just buy it without as much as a toot. Therefore, when you consider the time of the sales people, there is a greater profit on the student level instrument as less employee time has been used making the sale.
In the long run, there is possibly more money to be had in selling the lower priced instruments in greater quantity. This would lead to a larger customer base, repeat customers and word of mouth from satisfied customers. When you look for example at the number of pro clarinetists in a geographical area and think of the number of sales they will produce and then think of the number of beginning and young clarinetists (lets say grades 4-12) and the number of potential and repeat sales this can represent, the number is staggering. Remember also that the number keeps replenishing as new students come up. I remember it was easily 20 or more years ago, I saw an article that Bundy had produced their one millionth resonite clarinet. I don't know where the numbers are today, to say nothing of the other makers, but I don't think the R13 with all its popularity, is anywhere near this figure.
While the expense figures, number of customers are interesting, it is worth noting that keep in mind, the store in NYC has greater sales, greater costs and greater number of customers. In Podunk, lower cost of living, yet proportionally lower sales/income and customers. It all balances out in the end. When you factor in dealer costs and include the fact that those dealers are also working against the large catalogue places, they are probably further behind.
My greatest concern is the lack of concern with quality service. Research has shown that consumers are greatly concerned with service and the "warm fuzzy" feelings that accompany it. Look at the success of the Saturn auto. It is probably this more than the actual mechanics of the car itself which has led to the strong sales of these cars. While some may dismiss the concept of quality service and argue economics, if you look at the example above, it is simple. The store lost a customer, his repeat business, and word of mouth. These all add up.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-16 05:00
And I agree, Ed.
Part of the thing with the sales-people being so busy in a N.Y.C. store has to do, precisely, with blowing student instruments out the door as fast as they can sell them. Same applies to accessories.
If I can blow five student instruments, 10 mouthpieces, 11 ligatures, six bottles of bore oil and 12 sets of guitar strings out the door in two hours, plus talk someone into leaving a couple of instruments for repair, I make considerably more money than if I dedicate the two hours exclusively to wet-nursing one difficult client, who may or may not purchase that $700.00 instrument.
Besides, N.Y.C. sales people are usually cracker-jack sharks. They can tell you who is going to buy and who is not, almost as the client walks in the door. Their job demands they sell profitably all day long, or they don't make the profit margin required for the store to stay in business. Then they are replaced with someone who can.
This doesn't mean they should neglect the $700.00, one item client. Just that the client who is spending that $700.00 is usually going to take more time to make his decision and the store clerk is not there to wait hand-and-foot on the one client, $700.00 or not, nor lose money neglecting other clients who walk in during that same time period and deserve good service as well.
I would rather take care of those 30 smaller spenders than of the one difficult larger spender. In case there is anyone out there who doubts it, let me tell you that it's the 30 small spenders who pay the bills on a regular basis. They are also the ones who come in, buy and get out so someone else can do the same thing.
To get exclusive attention in a N.Y. C. store for any length of time, you need to spend enough to make it worth their while. If not, either you need to take your turn in between other clients, or you need to make your purchase and get out of the way. Unfortunately, that's the way real life is.
I've never felt neglected in a N.Y.C. store. You just can't go in during a busy period and expect exclusivity.
I believe N.Y.C. has the most expensive real estate in the world today. A hole-in-the-wall store-front can cost more to rent than 30 decent-sized store-fronts many other places, if not more. (I use the 30 only figuratively, I haven't done the reasearch.)
The regional comparison does make a big difference. A store clerk in Morganton, N.C. makes anywhere from $6.00 to $10.00 per hour if they are lucky. If they can sell one student horn, a mouthpiece and a couple of sets of guitar strings in an eight hour period, they covered their salary and the store's rent for the day, if not much else.
$75,000.00 a year in N.Y.C. is not that much money for someone who pays $31,000.00 yearly rent, groceries are triple or more what they cost anyplace else, so is electricity, maybe pay for heating fuel in the winter and A/C in the summer (at N.Y. prices) and pays the cost of public transportation to move around every day.
And let's not even get into the fact that people who work in N.Y.C. pay city and state income taxes, as well as federal income taxes every year, while those who live in Padunk only pay, what, 15% federal income tax on the near minimum wages they earn working in a store?
I'm not trying to insult those who live in small towns, but there it is.
In Padunk the average music store clerk was a high-school musician, however good he/she may have been.
Some place like N.Y.C., the average music store clerk is a either one or all, a full-fledged professional musician looking for his break or working gigs at night and weekends, and/or or completing a college degree in music.
Just look at the BW&WW catalog, where it tells you about the people who sell instruments and accessories for them.
I'm not telling you they are all bright individuals regardless of how much they make, just that the quality of help you have, especially in a very busy, cost ridden, major city store often spells how much your store is going to make, and how much you will have to pay them.
During a short period of time, when I worked for the New York Times Affiliated News Group, I was editor of one of their medium-sized, Central Florida newspapers. The "society editor" had been the reigning queen of the high school newpaper in that town.
She couldn't spell, never mind write, and refused to take any instructionor criticism whatsoever. But she made nearly minimum wage, so it was accepted by the publisher.
Her mother was the newspaper's proof reader. Every week I counted the mis-spelled words in that paper and I died 1,000 deaths facing the town librarian and others who knew "my" newspaper was written at a grammar school level.
I had to transfer out or kill them all. Now, look at the New York Times itself and see how it's written. I am not asking you whether you agree with the content, but to look at the quality of the writing in it and the average education level of the writers. They make a great deal of money, comparatively speaking.
They make enough money to make it worth their while to work there, and they produce at a level equivalent to their salaries, or they don't last.
It makes a heck of a big difference, even if it's difficult for some people to imagine it or understand it.
And I hope I made sense, I'm going to sleep now.
Good night all!
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-16 10:01
So, basically, don't shop in NYC where they just want to make a quick buck, go somewhere that they really care about customers and reputation. Thank goodness the music shops I frequent have always offered fantastic service, and help when needed, no matter how busy. What ever happened to the phrase 'the customer is always right'. If I have money to spend, I want to make sure I spend it wisely and if I was faced with this shop, I think I'd leave straight away.
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Author: Mark Charette,
Date: 2001-11-16 12:56
Emms wrote:
> What ever happened to the phrase
> 'the customer is always right'.
It went the way of small stores that actually tried to follow the slogan.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-16 18:38
As I said, I never felt neglected in a N.Y.C. store, or any other busy store where the sales-people were just too busy tending several clients at a time, or some such.
If you get recalcitrant about that, then perhaps the customer is not always right.
I'm not defending the stores, mind you, I'm simply saying that you are not being treated shabbily by a sales-person who is trying to accomodate several clients at the same time during a busy period.
If I have two clarinets and four mouthpieces to try, and I go into a try-out room to do so, I expect to spend some time in there. I can't expect the sales-person to stand outside the door and wait until I'm done so he/she can immediately get me the next bach.
I would expect to come out of that room and find the sales-person taking care of another client. I would also expect to exersice a little common courtesy and consideration, both for the sales-person and the other client and not take it personal if I have to wait for the sales-person to take a little time to get back to me.
I would not expect to throw a temper tantrum because I self-imposed time limitations on myself in which I expected to own a "good" clarinet and my time ran out.
Hey Emms, do you own a good clarinet? How long did it take you to find it and buy it? Unless you are one of those people who to whom Ed refers, who buy the first one out of the box without trying it, it should have taken you considerable time and effort. Again, unless you got real lucky. Most people don't.
I too, have about five or six shops that treat me very well, but I also treat them very well and don't make impossible demands on their sales staff's time. Especially when I go in to try out instruments and/or mouth pieces.
When I do that, I expect to spend several leisurely hours doing so. I've been in a store from the time they opened to the time they closed (say, 10:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.) doing some such, then came back again the next day, and so on.
At times, there have been other clients who thought I worked there!
Have you ever called the BW&WW catalog sales people? How about the telephone company's customer service? Power company? Everyone puts you on hold during busy periods and we all have to wait, not just the whiners. They are just more noticeable.
Have you ever gone to the bank during a busy time and had to stand in line what, 20 minutes? A half hour? Everywhere you go it's like that. Just that some people need to grow up and realize they don't have the right to be first, foremost and one-and-only all the time!
Except me, of couse!! (Just funnin'.)
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-16 20:15
Peter, why do you insist that Dan was whining? He just stated he didn't have time to stay in the store. He said he had to wait for the sales person. To me this is a statement of fact, not a whine. You say he threw a temper tantrum. Where, for goodness sake? Dan didn't expect the sales person to stand outside the door and wait for him. Neither did he say he took this personally. You are extrapolating your own ideas from an innocent description of a day in a music shop.
I took a day to find my clarinet. I had to impose time restrictions on myself - I had three very small children at the time. i happened to have personal service. I was brought many clarinets, mps to try and was made to feel I was an important customer, even though it was obvious I was relatively new to this. I was a hobbyist who wanted a decent clarinet, but didn't know much about it at the time and didn't have much time either. I was lucky. I tried many clarinets, but one seemed just right - good tone, quiet keys, etc, good altissimo (although I still struggle with these). I must admit, that not knowing much about clarinets at the time, I did wonder why these expensive instruments didn't all seem to be 'just right'. I know now of course, but back then I really did wish there was an easier way of buying an instument. My only experience of buying up to then was anything off the peg. If it cost as much as my clarinet did, I expected near perfection!
May I say that you are very lucky to be able to spend several leisurely hours in a music shop. I certainly can't and I'm sure many others are the same.
I also know of other players who have bought good clarinets, and the corks have all fallen off, keys were bent, notes seriously out of tune etc. If you aren't 'in the know' about clarinets, it is very frustrating, but thinking about it, why should there be so many faults?
And yes, I have been put on hold on the telephone, and I admit, I whine like mad. I can't stand being forced to listen to AWFUL music on the lines whilst I'm waiting!! (Can't say I'm made to wait that often, though - definitely not in the past year, except for buying cinema tickets!)
The largest queue in my bank has been of 2 people! and when I walk into my music shop, it doesn't matter how much I spend as to how much attention I get.Sorry, the world is a small place these days, but we're worlds apart.
I hope you weren't inferring that I need to grow up. I just feel that people should be given a chance, and not shot down because they have different opinions.There are those who whine, and those who whine about the whiners!!
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-16 21:16
Emms,
I am on my way out to a far-away music competition, I apologize for being short at this time.
I didn't mean for you to think I meant you need to grow up, and I guess you're right, we are worlds apart. The U.S. is a somewhat more agressive place to live.
I spent a year with British, Australian and New Zealand troops in Central Africa many years ago and always admired the British calm and laid back attitude in most things.
I daresay there are probably lots of things we take in stride that would shock the socks off of many Britts. Perhaps I am one of them!
By the way, it was with the Britts in Africa where I picked up the Oxford coma habit so prevalent in almost everything I write.
I'll communicate with you some more next week.
Enjoy.
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Author: Julia
Date: 2001-11-16 21:31
Peter---if your first email wasn't too offensive, this one was. Enough already---everyone already knows what you think. Furthermore, to say something once as an opinion--and rude it was--is different from saying it twice when you know what has already happened in context.
I have no further comments on the immaturity of this post.
Julia
N.b. just so you know that i'm not choosing you exclusively, Dan's warning post was also not appropriate. This is a cat fight between the two of you and you need to do your part and stop it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-17 00:00
What is maturity? The behaviour of you if you conform to the set of behaviours that I have decided are superior? Is there an element of arrogance in being 'mature'?
"Immature" children and adults have a delightful and refreshing trust, innocence, sponteneity, mischievousness and challenging of ideas. People, typically adults, that are sooooo 'mature' are also often boring - perhaps bland is a better word - from an overdose of conformity.
Perhaps the real maturity is in possessing the confidence and sense of fun to be unashamedly 'immature'. As one gets older it gradually becomes acceptable again and labelled ecentricity. Haha! The eccentric adult and the typical, un-broken-in child have a special something in common, even though the child may experience social pressure to reject the eccentric.
I picked up a delightful quote from Meri which could be adapted.... The only difference between a child and an interesting adult is that the adult is older.
How uninteresting is the broken-in horse compared with the one that holds its head high and runs wild.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-19 13:36
Julia,
A "cat-fight" is a male-chauvinistic term for two women involved in a one-to-one physical altercation (it implies the unsheathing of the claws or long fingernails, as it were.)
Since, I believe, you are a female, and Dan and I are both of the male gender, I don't believe the term quite applies.
Now, if you meant that Dan and I are involved in a petty bull-s--t argument that has sucked in the largest number of posters in what I would suspect is a long while, then you are absolutely correct.
I never expected it to snowball quite so, but as long as it did, many of us just wound up venting and having fun with it (I think.)
As of this one, we are up to 112 postings between the two threads. As Larry L. would say, go figure!
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-11-19 14:35
Gordon, I think we have the makings of a new thread:
You said--(in part--)"immature'. As one gets older it gradually becomes acceptable again and labelled ecentricity."
I have found that is only true if, (1) you are richer than the other bloke, and (2) slightly dotty besides.
Bob A
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-19 20:57
What is this thread leading to? By the way, welcome back, Peter.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-19 23:20
Thanks Emms,
This thread is leading to places no human has ever been before. To the ends of the galaxy and the begining of a new beguine. Upwards and forward. Back and forth. A hop, skip and a jump, and take me out to the ball game...Abadi, abadi, thats all folks (for now.)
I'll e-mail you as soon as I catch up with some stuff I left undone on Saturday and should have finished on Sunday. You know, man's work is never done.
It feels good to be back. I think.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-11-20 09:16
But Bob, I'm not rich!
I service instruments - part time.
Perhaps I have an overdose of dottiness to compensate.
Dictionary ..... "dotty = crazy or eccentric".
So....."Upwards and forward. Back and forth" Round and round.
Hi Peter! Is that you spinning in the opposite direction?
I feel much better now
Was any of that offensive?
Is this poetry?
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-20 10:47
Are any of us mature? 'Mature' means - fully developed, perfected. 'Perfect' - flawless, having every moral excellence, completely skilled. Not me.
Upwards and forwards. Back and forth
Spinning round and round
This thread is endless. On and on
No real answer found
Peter, Bob are arguing.
Dan is left upset.
Lets all leave this worn out thread.
Get back to clarinet.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2001-11-20 14:28
Faith and Begorrah could it be that Julia is the only mature in the bunch?
Bob,
You know the old story about if you are rich, you are an alcoholic, if you are poor, you are a drunk?
Well, if you are rich, you are an eccentric, if you are poor, you are an old fool!
(BTW, I'm not rich either.)
Gordon,
It must be my own impending closet immaturity/eccentricity (stupidity?) looking for a way to manifest itself, after fighting it's way through the many hidden layers which are hidden by other layers, and so on, to erupt in one massive, but incoherent blob of speech better to have been left unuttered...
(Unuttered: Does that "word" refer to a person who's had a radical wordectamy?)
Emms,
Amen to that, I liked your poem.
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Author: Emms
Date: 2001-11-21 23:57
Too tired to write,
too late at night
Do not have time
to make more rhyme.
My sleepy head
just needs its bed
and lots of zzzzzzzzz
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The Clarinet Pages
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